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Comment on Reducing Political Polarization by Respecting Human Dignity

PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

I do think a lot of the average proponents are just victims of propaganda.

Yeah, Dems say this, too:"They’re voting against their own interests! No, Republicans are not doing that. When Democrats do that, they’re lying to themselves just as much as you are. Because, honestly, do you think they don’t understand what abortion is? Like…really?

Look at all the studies into gun violence and all the mass shooting headlines, all proclaiming its the tool and not the person, all propaganda,

Again, what makes these scientific studies propaganda? What makes scientific studies by right-wing thinks tanks not propaganda?

I do appreciate that you don’t think of us as evil.

You can show your appreciation by putting in the work of undoing the truly insidious propaganda that’s made you think other regular people are evil. Maybe Nancy Pelosi is. Maybe Trump is. But regular people just to live our lives, right?

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Blamemeta@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
As much as I want to be high minded and try to understand them and reach across the aisle, I can’t do the mental gymnastics required. I simply can’t put gun control proponent with a good smart person who hasn’t been affected by propaganda. Maybe not straight up evil, that lies with the dems, but theres just no way.

Also, gun violence takes a bunch of unrelated things, murder, suicide, accidents, and groups them together by the tool. Of course removing the tool is the answer to reducing gun violence, thats the only thing tying them together.

For example, if you want to reduce suicide, better mental health, better economy, better life in general. Raise the minimum wage.

Accidents are just accidents. Teach gun safety in schools, just like sex ed.

Murder? Same solution for any other high crime rate.

But you group them together, theres nothing tying them together. Its so incredibly obvious that I honestly don’t see how anyone wouldn’t immediately think its bullshit.

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- PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  For example, if you want to reduce suicide, better mental health, better economy, better life in general. Raise the minimum wage.
  
  Look at that a point of agreement already that goes against the usual conservative belief in free markets. I too believe that improving the material conditions would reduce suicide and improve mental health and life generally.
  
  Also, gun violence takes a bunch of unrelated things, murder, suicide, accidents, and groups them together by the tool.
  
  That’s an interesting view of those issues. I suppose I don’t understand why they shouldn’t be grouped together by the tool when firearms are common to each of those issues. How do you think they should be understood?
  
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  - Blamemeta@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    The problem is the action, not the tool. Murder is bad. Suicide is bad. Accidents are bad. But they have different causes and different possible solutions. The tool used isn’t a cause, its just the tool.
    
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  - TJD@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    I suppose I don’t understand why they shouldn’t be grouped together by the tool when firearms are common to each of those issues.
    
    Traffic jams, double parking, and car bombs all make use of the same tool as well, but it would be asinine to put them all into the same bucket when they have entirely different causes.
    
    Look at it this way, nobody is trying to put self harm via knife in the same category as some drug deal gone south involving a knife. So why is it reasonable to do the same when the tool is a gun? Both murder and suicide happen regardless of guns, and looking at statistics across places with more/less guns regarding murder, guns are an entirely irrelevant factor.
    
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    PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    Traffic jams, double parking, and car bombs all make use of the same tool as well, but it would be asinine to put them all into the same bucket when they have entirely different causes.
    
    Changing your means of transportation fixes all of those problems (well, not really car bombs…). Cyclists don’t get stuck in traffic jams. In places where you can lane split, motorcycles can also avoid traffic jams. All of those problems (except car bombs) stem from the fact that ~~people suck at driving~~ cars, trucks, and SUVs are not efficient modes of transportation.
    
    Similarly, firearms are an very efficient mode of killing people.
    
    Look at it this way, nobody is trying to put self harm via knife in the same category as some drug deal gone south involving a knife. So why is it reasonable to do the same when the tool is a gun?
    
    I’m having a really hard time understanding this. It’s like saying we can push nails in with a hammer or the back of a screwdriver; why does it matter which we use? In either case, the nail secures two pieces of wood. But…hammers are made for driving in nails. That is their purpose. That’s why it matters the we use a hammer to drive nails rather than the back of screwdriver.
    
    But you’re saying the purpose of the tool doesn’t matter, right? The intent is the same in either case, to kill someone else or one’s self. And it’s the intent that matters more the effectiveness of the tool.
    
    Analogically, it’s totally reasonable to construct houses by driving nails in with the backs of screwdrivers because a house gets built, the real intent.
    
    Oh, I think I’m beginning to understand our difference: I just assume people will want to kill other people. Safety for me isn’t eliminating the desire to kill (as nice as that’d be), but reducing the chances that I’ll die should someone try to kill me. Having neither been shot nor stabbed, research suggests that I should prefer the proliferation of knives over firearms if I’d like to live another day.
    
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