Comment on Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's Zionist Bar Problem

• mrdown@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Stop deflecting. Would you allow supermasist ideologies like nazism? If no why do you oppose censoring zionism the supermasist ideology behind israel colonization of Palestine

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  • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Well I don’t think Nazism is one single thing dude. Not all Nazis are the same and think the same things. Every ideology has internal debates and various camps. It all depends on the specifics, which is why I would rather deal with it user by user and judge users for their actions, not their ideologies/beliefs. I also understand the concept of context. Is a community that is making fun of Nazis by using their slogans, promoting Nazism? A lot of people certainly could not draw the distinction. What about a community that wants to talk about Nazism in a historical context? Is that promoting genocide?

    You call it ‘deflection’ I called it being reasonable and not making massive generalizations. Nazism and Zionism are not One Big Thing That is Evil. Lots of people, yourself include, probably have beliefs that are in agreement with several aspects of them, and disagree with others. My beef isn’t with an ideology, it’s with calls to violence, no matter what ideology they are coming from. And lots and lots of people from various ideologies call for violence and perpetuate hate and rage. I see a buttload of it coming from lemmy leftists of various self-identified flavors. If I am going to assume Nazis are evil and bad them for their violent ideology, then I’ve got to basically ban communists/socialists/anarchists too, because by your logic both are equivalently evil.

    But the main disagreement we have here is that you think ideologies are the problem. I don’t. I think people are the problem. If a particular insane of ‘Nazis’ has self identified and organized itself around violence and hate, sure I’d ban them. But there are tons of contexts in which discussion of Nazis and their beliefs would be totally permissible and admirable. I myself have done various history projects on the KKK and supremacy and papers on the ideology in my academic career. Am I therefore promoting or believing in Nazi ideology?

    In a professional context, like say legit hate groups being investigated by FBI or the press, what is targeted is the actions of the group and the individuals therein. That’s what I’m interested in policing, not thought or discussion.

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    • mrdown@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Israel declaration of independence mention Herzl as the spiritual father of the state. Herzl advocated for ethnic cleansing

      Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895

      The property owners will come over to our side. According to my conception, the majority of the local population will have to be transferred elsewhere.

      We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895

      Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895

      After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will **abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine ** partition might be only a temporary arrangement for the next twenty to twenty-five years - Chaim Weizmann 1st President of Israel

      You can’t claim to be anti genocide and settler colonialism if you don’t think Zionism is a problem

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      • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        That’s guilt by association. It’s a fallacy. Lots of national leaders and founders were racists and horrible people in various factors. That doesn’t mean the states necessarily were or are or forever will be.

        I don’t claim to be anything. You are making all the claims here about who is what. Where I stand agonizing about genocide and dividing everyone up into pro and anti is simply stupid. My understanding is that the current Israeli government and its hardliner supporters are are engaged in a unnecessary escalated conflict, largely motivated by their own beliefs. However, that has not always been the case and various parties in the government do not agree. The conflict in Gaza is part of a much larger history that goes back centuries and isn’t ‘Zionism’.

        But I’m interested in history and reality, not moralizing catchphrases and moral grandstanding over issues for which my views have zero political relevance or impact. I’m not a citizen of the state of Israel.

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