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can_you_change_your_username@fedia.io ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

Relative to the time in which each was released Trek has gotten less progressive over time. TOS was released during the height of the cold war and the civil rights movement. It had a black female bridge officer. The line of command isn't super clear on tos but Uhura was a department head and no lower than sixth in command. It had the first interracial kiss on television between Kirk and Uhura. It had a Russian bridge officer, also no lower than sixth in command. It had an Asian bridge officer also no lower than sixth in command. Earth was presented as a Socialist utopia.

TNG didn't really back off of that ideologically, though it didn't do as good of a job with racial representation, but it also didn't advance it and culture did advance between the 60s and the 90s.

DS9 pulled back on it primarily as a result of its exploration of darker themes. It creates and drives wedges into cracks in Earth's Utopia. It has Starfleet and even the main protagonist abandon Starfleet's ideas and principles in periods of adversity. It also started the movement away from the philosophical sci-fi that Trek thrived in before to more action oriented sci-fi.

Ultimately, imo, Janeway was a more "Starfleet" officer than Sisko. She showed more integrity and dedication to the Federation's ideals under greater levels of hardship and personal risk. All in all Voy was not particularly more or less progressive than DS9 though.

Nutrek tries but it's too action oriented and doesn't really explore the themes in a meaningful way and that causes its more progressive moments to come off as less impactful and less integrated into the story. It also seems to forget that Starfleet is a quasi military organization and doesn't always do a good job at presenting the characters as competent disciplined professionals which makes progressive decisions and moments less meaningful.

So, I agree. Trek it's woke enough. It should bring Roddenberry's philosophical progressive Trek into the modern era.

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sirblastalot@ttrpg.network ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I think you’re selling DS9’s progressiveness short. The federation is portrayed as less progressive, but the message of the show itself is far more progressive than the norm; if anything, it makes the federation standins for moderate/centrist/liberals and calls them out for not being left enough.

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- kieron115@startrek.website ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  For real! I know this is a bit of a meme but it really isn’t far off. The show definitely had its problems with representation (like not letting avery brooks sport his signature bald w/ a goatee until season 3 because they were worried that a bald, black lead would be “too intimidating” or whatever) but it also had PLENTY of stuff that “shouldn’t” have been on network TV in 1993. Also lets not forget the episode where Jadzia got to meet all the past Dax symbionts and Quark got stuck with an old lady inhabiting his body for half an episode or so.
  
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chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
The biggest change happened during TNG’s run, when Roddenberry left the show due to declining health and subsequently passed away in 1991. The writers on the show had long been frustrated by Gene’s insistence that federation officers rise above petty interpersonal conflict. They felt this limitation made it extremely difficult to write compelling drama since all of the main cast had to get along all the time.

The later introduction of characters such as Ensign Ro demonstrate the first fruits (or first cracks) of the move away from Roddenberry’s philosophy. By the time DS9’s cast had been developed, the “no interpersonal conflict” rule had been completely subverted.

The funny thing is, many fans actually prefer DS9 for this. I think it makes the show a lot more relatable. Of course I’d rather live on the Enterprise than on DS9.

It should also be noted that these creative differences aren’t specific to Roddenberry and his new staff, they’re reflective of generational divides that began during the Cold War and really culminated in the 1980s. The exuberant optimism of the counterculture (Roddenberry’s kindred) had long dissipated and the slow demise of the Soviet Union revealed widespread disillusionment with the tenets of communism. In many ways, Star Trek pivoted from communism to full fledged neoliberalism in the 90s.

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OctopusNemeses@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
There’s also factors like modern TV format and audiences. The shorter one story arc seasons don’t allow any room to maneuver. Bottle episodes got an undeserved bad reputation from the segment of viewers who want a linear sprint to the conclusion. It’s like a boring generic first person shooter with only a straight line from start to finish. No exploration. Writers aren’t allowed to write.

They give the audiences what they they think the audiences might want. That is the safe, easy to write 6-10 episode plot. Sometimes the audiences like it. Sometimes the don’t. Either way they’ve strayed from actual writing anymore. Bottle episodes add dimension to characters. Multi-path seasons add depth and breadth to the entire ensemble.

A side effect of modern TV format is more focus on action. When they don’t have room to maneuver then they substitute with brief action. A bit of plot. More quick action. Advance the single main plot again. Maybe a little B-plot. Repeat until episode 6 to 10. That segment of viewers are so tunnel-visioned on squeezing everything out of less than a dozen episodes. They’re scared of one going to waste on bottle episodes or “filler”.

Writers don’t have any room to explore several different plots. Some spanned entire seasons or even multiple seasons. Some were just one episode. There is no room for it in modern television. Whereas before instead of pointless actual filler of action sequence, they could have started a whole other plot that lead to several more episodes later in the season.

If Chief O’Brien happened in modern TV and for modern audiences, he would not be the O’Brien who suffers. He would be a stereotypical snarky engineer who reads off the scripted technojargon. They’ll give him a likeable character quirk that is relatable to the young STEM crowd and then maybe kill him off randomly, ostensibly to make him a worthy character because he died. That’s as much depth as we’d get. A one dimensional character that people like superficially.

The disdain for bottle episodes might be one of the worst things to happen to the medium. That’s not to overshadow the other issue that TV shows do not have the level complexity they used to.

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- T156@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  The seasons are also smaller. Take the episode count, for example. Season 1 of TNG was 26 episodes. Discovery’s S1, by comparison, is only 15.
  
  That’s ten whole episodes of development space lost. Would be curious what’s driving the trend, whether it’s the network not wanting to pay for “filler” episodes, or the producers not wanting to put “filler” in for one reason or another.
  
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Grail@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Not the first interracial kiss on TV

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regdog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I read “Nutrek” as “Nut Trek” and I thought that sounded appropriate

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