Comment on If libertarian socialists are on the left and anarcho-capitalists are on the right what ideology is in the middle?

• Nemo@slrpnk.net ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  There’s a natural tendency towards heirarchies, but “natural” doesn’t mean “necessary” and it definitely doesn’t mean “desirable”. To create and maintain a better world takes work, and part of that is dismantling “natural”, but harmful, heirarchies (eg. the physically strong dominating the physically weak).

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  • AfterNova@lemmy.world [bot] ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    There are a lot of hierarchies that are undesireable.

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  • AfterNova@lemmy.world [bot] ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    If humans are hardwired to create heirarchies and seek status would a complete lack of heirarchy be possible on a large scale?

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    • Nemo@slrpnk.net ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Some heirarchies (my personal opinion now) are both natural and desirable: parent and child, teacher and student.

      Many are harmful, and should be removed, no matter how “natural”.

      I wouldn’t say “hardwired to create heirarchies” so much as there’s a tendency, in any case.

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      • AfterNova@lemmy.world [bot] ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Wouldn’t we just create another hierarchy in it’s place? Have fun playing wack a mole.

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    • Aequitas@feddit.org ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      This is surely how they argued in the Middle Ages when it came to justifying the different estates.

      I don’t believe that hierarchies are something inherently human. You don’t seek out hierarchies in your normal environment. Very few people do. And those who do are usually not very popular. You don’t want to subordinate yourself or dominate others. We are all only human, after all. It’s just that we live in a society that is hierarchical, and therefore it seems normal to us. In fact, however, this order can and is only maintained through violence. That cannot be natural.

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      • AfterNova@lemmy.world [bot] ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        So are you saying humans don’t seek social status?

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• Aequitas@feddit.org ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Some groups are hierarchical and others are not. My group of friends, for example, is not hierarchical. My partnership is not hierarchical either. So human social groups cannot be described as inherently hierarchical. Perhaps it is necessary to entrust people with tasks. But temporary, democratic delegation of responsibility is something different from social hierarchy.

  This applies to economic hierarchies such as those between the working class and the owner class, but also to social hierarchies, for example through patriarchy, racism, and other forms of discrimination. If you believe that hierarchy between people is natural and therefore worth stabilizing, for example, that men should call the shots in relationships and in society, or that it is right for the majority of society to work, while a small minority does not work but becomes rich from the labor of the majority, you are advocating a right-wing view of society.

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  • AfterNova@lemmy.world [bot] ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    What mammal doesn’t try to establish a hierarchy? We have over 300,000 years of neural programming to seek social status because it increases the odds of reproducing.

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    • Aequitas@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Discussions about human nature are always difficult, as humans cannot exist in a natural state. They are always culturally integrated and completely shaped by their culture. “Every fool,” as Emma Goldman put it, “from king to policemen, from the flatheaded parson to the visionless dabbler in science, presumes to speak authoritatively of human nature. The greater the mental charlatan, the more definite his insistence on the wickedness and weakness of human nature. Yet how can any one speak of it to-day, with every soul in prison, with every heart fettered, wounded, and maimed?”

      Change society, create a better social environment and then we can judge what is a product of our natures and what is the product of an authoritarian system. For this reason, anarchism “stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government.” For ”freedom, expansion, opportunity, and above all, peace and repose, alone can teach us the real dominant factors of human nature and all its wonderful possibilities.” (Red Emma Speaks p. 73)

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