I agree with lots of what you’re saying, this was a serious bug, it wasn’t the user’s fault, and users can’t be expected to learn bash.
My point is that the message tried to be as scary as possible, because if that message shows then something is about to uninstall critical components from the system, the bug here was that trying to install steam triggered that. I agree that it wasn’t Linus fault, but I think that most users would stop at that message, he didn’t because he thinks he knows what he’s doing, but he doesn’t, he’s in that middle ground where he knows enough to be confidently wrong.
Let me ask you, how would you have given that message in a way that would make people stop?, remember that the message is valid, the bug was installing steam doing that.
Credibly_Human@lemmy.world 1 day ago
This is the part I disagree with.
Even with my background as stated, similar things have happened to me over time with weird dependency nonsense with what should have been simple updates, not even installs. The types of things you just run, because you expect them to be tested as they are official updates by the team behind the OS.
Luckily Tumbleweed Snapper snapshots saved me, but if I wasn’t savvy, such experiences, while not normal, being semi annual or annual occurrences would absolutely break me as a user. In speaking with other users in relevant channels, I ascertain that my experiences aren’t super uncommon, but it really did hammer home a point: People deep into linux really don’t get how much they’ve learned to deal with and learned how to deal with.
I think people have a hard time thinking that something that happened so casually and over time for them could be challenging, or imagining just how far they themselves had come or that they themselves are significantly different to the average user.
I know the whole idea and how its used in pop culture is pretty much just pop science, but I think reverse dunning kruger is absolutely a good way to describe this. People often develop competencies, and then just believe that they surely can’t be that much more competent at whatever thing than the average person, leading them to be perplexed when said thing is indeed challenging for others.
I don’t think there is any problem with the wording. I think there is a problem with the UX. There is a big problem with the way package managers in linux work and the way they share dependencies/can easily get into dependency hell.
I think Flatpaks and to a lesser extent Snaps and even lesser, Appimages, are much more sane/user friendly ways to install applications on linux and so I don’t think there was anything wrong with the message, but the situations that lead to that message being anything a regular user would ever need to see on any semi regular basis.
Really, and this is the hottest take there might be about linux and user adoption, one of the biggest problems with linux, is that there are no nannies, and that the core users right now not only (claim to) like it that way, but are actively hostile to nanny features.
I think computers should be forgiving. You should be able to make a mistake as a user, and quickly correct it. You shouldn’t semi regularly need to go into an environment where typing something incorrectly could result in your machine being out of commission until you resolve said problem (part of why snapshots should be part of every computing experience… Windows included…)
Nibodhika@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Again, I agree with the majority of what you’re saying, and yes, I think most of us might suffer from xkcd.com/2501/ but in this particular instance Linus only needed the terminal because of the bug, otherwise he should have been able to install it via the GUI, so the bug was even more disastrous to the UX.
I think that nanny features are okay on the GUI, which is exactly what happened here, but I should be allowed to do what I want on my system if I have the know how, and I’m okay with danger style messages to let me know I’m about to do something potentially dangerous, but I’m against being forbidden from uninstalling X (which is the short version of what Linus did).
Flatpacks/snaps/etc are great, and I agree that there should be a push for user space to be mostly there. Also I know it’s not for most users, but you might be interested in checking out NixOS which allows you to rollback almost anything, so while not a solution for the majority of people if this is something you have problems with and have the time and energy to learn Nix language it’s a great distro for having a system that’s almost impossible to break.
Credibly_Human@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I’m not in favour of losing autonomy. Not what I was trying to say. Im just saying that if you fuck up, you should be able to unfuck up reasonably. With linux as it is most of the time, you could get got with a typo.
I also agree that this fault is mostly there because of an error, but I think the point is kinda that, if it wasn’t that it’d be something else eventually. Thats just how it is. Its not to blame any developers as I completely understand their constraints, goals and incentives, but its just a reality, and one I think Valve is poised to help with tremendously given than they are a big company whose usability goals are somewhat aligned now.
I was quite interested in NIX, but it seemed at the time I was using linux as a daily that it would be a rough ride to use as a desktop computer/seemed more optimized for use as a server. I do have plans to use a spare machine in such a capacity, so I would say maybe, but then their association with Anduril is pretty fucking disgusting and kinda left a really bad taste in my mouth.
Anyhow, I think that really, just something like BTRFS snapshots are probably good enough for 9.9/10 fuck ups one might face where they want an emergency undo button (If BTRFS fixed raid 6 write hole issues I would be soo fucking happy btw).
I also obviously given the past tense kinda gave up on the linux daily because well, games, and its like, why am I fighting my computer. This is not a hill to die on. Maybe later or maybe for a secondary build, but given I just got a 5090 and wanted to fuck around with it, I just set the whole idea aside.