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Ten_forward@startrek.website 1 year agoNo, I’m saying by the time of Voyager this teleporter clone technology could very well have been figured out. It seems a wasted opportunity to not take advantage of that storyline and open up anyone more ethical dilemmas.
There is no situation in which you can put it into practice and have it be a solution to the problem.
I see absolutely no reason why not.
You will not get his consent. Ever. He doesn’t want to die.
I can’t imagine why he wouldn’t be in favor of the plan, especially since he is half Vulcan. It’s a very logical solution to the issue.
Just because you clone someone doesn’t mean that logically they’re going to go “Oh, well I guess, I can die if it means that another version of me lives.”
Again I see absolutely no reason not to.
He was acting on a survival instinct. He’s not going to override that just because there’s a clone.
There’s no reason he’d have to…
Which means you must still make the decision that Janeway made. You STILL MUST decide whether to kill Tuvix or let him live.
Of course, but this way they can all coexist. I see it as an absolute win win for everyone.
apart because you’re back to the same argument that was made at the start.
I definitely disagree. The argument is the cost of Tuvix, my solution preserves Tuvix. I’m not sure you understand what I’m proposing or are just not accepting that in this case there is no real death of anyone.
Do you have the right to execute one man to save the lives of two others?
When you can simultaneously preserve the life, absolutely!
Stamets@startrek.website 1 year ago
Transporter clones are not that simple. When they occur it’s because of a strange anomaly. Just because something does happen doesn’t mean that they’ll be able to recreate it. Everytime they’ve happened it’s been either because of situations beyond their control or due to a complete accident.
I have literally told you why. You keep ignoring it. You cannot use transporter clones to solve this problem when the problem is “do you have the right to kill them”. A transporter clone does NOTHING other than add another person to kill. Just because you have a backup doesn’t mean you suddenly are granted free murder rights.
He was also half-vulcan during his freakout on the bridge. Logic dictates to get your crewmen back. You are in stranded space. You are now relying on one individual to take the responsibilities of two roles. It is logical to separate Tuvix. Loved ones got their loved ones back, the responsibilities were no longer collated into a single person, and a lack of complex/new biology makes it easier for Sick Bay. It is not logical to run around on the bridge screaming for people to not kill you. Logic doesn’t seem to make much difference to Tuvix. That was also established in the episode itself where he acted based off of hunches and thoughts, not facts and opinion. Moreover, this is a survival mechanism. HE doesn’t want to die. Just because someone else is going to live his life doesn’t mean anything. He isn’t the one who is going to live that life. You are not giving the emotional situation here the weight it overwhelmingly deserves. Especially when the character never acted logical.
You know, except for the Tuvix that you have to kill. A decision that is now made WAY more cold by using a transporter clone. Janeway was put in a tough decision and had to make a rough call. The option you’re providing turns Janeway into a coldblooded killer who has already pre-emptively decided to kill but wants to have her cake and eat it too. I find it way more fucked up to have her resigned to already killing a man instead of being choked up making that decision.
No, that is not the argument and has never been the argument. The argument has always been “Does Janeway have the right to kill Tuvix?” That is literally the argument that’s made in the episode.
Then, even though there wasn’t a clone, Janeway was in the right.
Ten_forward@startrek.website 1 year ago
100% she was perfectly justified.
We simply disagree on this. The argument is exactly whether or not the life of Tuvix is worth the cost of two lives… I am not sure why you seem to disagree but we will have to end it there.
Stamets@startrek.website 1 year ago
Yeah, we will have to end it there because you’re just ignoring half of what I’m saying and ignoring the episode itself.
I disagree because you’re just objectively wrong. The literal argument made in the episode is that what Janeway is doing is wrong. It has nothing to do with wiping out his unique experience. It’s the fact that he doesn’t want to die. That’s the literal words he uses. “I don’t want to die.” Both Tuvix and Kes talk to Janeway about whether or not he should die. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a version of him will continue to exist.
Take care, wish you the best, but I am beyond done.
Ten_forward@startrek.website 1 year ago
I never said it was about wiping out his own uniquely existence. And I didn’t ignore half of what you said I agree with most of it and didn’t feel the need to repeatedly agree.
If I’m so objectively wrong then you’re very much just as wrong since we agreed so much.