Comment on Passkeys Explained: The End of Passwords
asmoranomar@lemmy.world 5 days agoTOTP is based on shared secrets, just like passwords. As such, it’s susceptible to many of the issues passwords are and is much closer to passwords than passkeys. Passkeys on the other hand, don’t have shared secrets and operate completely differently under the hood.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 5 days ago
Yeah, the implementation is very different.
I’m just saying that it’s similar from an average user point of view. You set it up once, then your app generates a unique code that the server can associate with you in a way that can’t be broken by a third party watching traffic.
asmoranomar@lemmy.world 5 days ago
That’s false, TOTP can and has been the target of man in the middle attacks, successfully. The implementation of passkeys makes man in middle attacks more difficult, but it could still happen. So both are susceptible to third parties to some degree.
As far as point of view, I was assuming we were talking about the process, since the goal of passkey UX is to be largely the ‘same as’. Which, to be frank, is way less dedicated since both the implementation of passwords and passkeys can vary widely (2fa, email, id, otp, etc). If we exclude those, the UX is the same - some users might be even using passkeys and not know it.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 5 days ago
The only MITM attack I’ve seen is entering codes before the user does. That’s not breaking TOTP in any meaningful way (which is what I was trying to get at), so it would be similar for password entry or even passkeys if they have sufficient control over the device or network to essentially do a replay attack.
I’m basically saying that generating codes with TOTP and passkeys are a similar process and are subject to similar threats. Passkeys are slightly better since codes can’t be generated independently, but AFAIK that’s not a significant threat for TOTP anyway.
The choice between TOTP or passkeys is not a significant one, if your provider offers one or the other, your account will be reasonably secure. If your TOTP solution is built in to your password manager, it’s basically the same thing so you should probably prefer passkeys.
asmoranomar@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Keep in mind, still discussing the underlying fundamentals and not the user experience.
MitM attacks are frequently covered in white hat hacking, often after an actual event takes place. It is considered a third party attack, and it does break trust. It is a security threat, and to claim it doesn’t count is absurd. I’ve seen a few reports personally from internal, but I’m not at liberty to speak specifics about them. On the topic of replay attacks, TOTP is vulnerable, but passkeys are not (yet, I’ve seen people try though). This isn’t the only type of MitM attack, and, again, both are somewhat vulnerable.
TOTP is nothing, nowhere similar to passkeys in any way. You do NOT generate codes with passkeys. Passkeys are a form of public/private keys that are used to create a challenge/response request and used to generate a digital signature. The keys are not passwords (aka “shared secrets”). Digital signatures are also not passwords. The only other thing I can think you mean by “code generation” is that you’re using it as a generic catch-all, but that happens with…well everything (even passwords), depending on context.
I don’t want to sound too much like a die hard passkey fan - and you are right - passkeys are extremely overkill if you use anything above a plain old password. In some cases, layered security can be just as effective. The problem is that most people do only use plain old passwords. If we can get any kind of extra security, even TOTP, then all the better. There are also some cases passkeys are not feasible, so it’s good to have alternatives.