Comment on When you say you don't like linux on Lemmy
CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org 5 months ago“is veganism a virtue”
sounds like a topic for a debate
like, it certaily is on paper, from a moral standpoint of causing less harm to the environmant
but “the environmant” is a really vague term. After all, by not allowing John Flesheater have his steak, you’re still technically harming an animal, just morally this time :D (and possibly in terms of health a bit, if there are some kind of external dietary limitations in a given local region)
Another problem is that farm animals don’t talk much about their feelings, ro we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them, thus we can’t say whether we’re helping them by stopping the process.
But that raises another question: “how one would know if they’re happy, if they never experienced happiness?”
I think veganism is a vanity that we can afford given the right circumstances, that some cultures also try to dress up as a virtue. So if one derives joy or piece of mind from it, they shoule do it as long as they do.
oof sorry, not coming drunk to lemmy again :D
Please read this and more importantly watch the material linked to see if you still think that “we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them”
theempathyproject.co.uk/…/the-mothers-of-dairy
Like I dont have time to get into all the different things going on with your post, it’s a lot, so lets focus on that one thing.
if you don’t have time then why bother debating?
I’m here cause i’m mildly drunk and cause i wanna entertain myself and people of lemmy with a philosophical blabber. No hurt feelings.
Anywho, the article you provided… It seems like a dramatic personal story of a previously ignorant of basic biology human, born and raised in a city. I’ve debated the “wheher we could see…” from a philosophical standpoint. I was raised in a village, where we had our own livestock, and i’ve seen my share of cruelty.
I’m making up this debate not because i support cruelty. I want to be the world as little cruel as possible. But there is a problem. Being kind and generous, as opposed to being cruel, is a vanity. Nobody wants to be cruel, as everybody is human, and averybody wants to sleep with a clean mind, knowing they did nothing wrong.
So if you think that veganism is highly moral, you’d better tell me the plan to make everybody vegan, so everyone would have a sound sleep at night. Be careful for your plan not to cause more harm than there were initially tho, as it would barely make a world into a better place then.
The article makes for a dramatic story, but otherwise offers no solution to the conundrum, not to mention that it barely relates to the topic, that , might i remind you, being “is veganism moral”
if you don’t have time then why bother debating?
I’m here cause i’m mildly drunk and cause i wanna entertain myself and people of lemmy with a philosophical blabber. No hurt feelings.
@Teppichbrand@feddit.org This is why I don’t bother debating with carnists. To them the pain and suffering they cause is just a mildly interesting talking point that they use for their ghoulish entertainment. They will demand an original write up to the same tired talking points you and I have seen a dozen times and will not genuinely engage with anything you link
Anywho, the article you provided… It seems like a dramatic personal story
It isn’t if you read past the introductory paragraph and actually watched the media like I asked.
I was raised in a village, where we had our own livestock, and i’ve seen my share of cruelty.
So you agree that it’s cruel? What the fuck was your point about “we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them”
Being kind and generous, as opposed to being cruel, is a vanity.
no, it’s a virtue. I dont know what you think a vanity is, but being kind and generous are virtues.
So if you think that veganism is highly moral, you’d better tell me the plan to make everybody vegan, so everyone would have a sound sleep at night.
At this point I’m fully in support of “ask once, shoot twice (if you can get away with it)”. Glory to the armed animal resistance.
The article makes for a dramatic story, but otherwise offers no solution to the conundrum,
You didn’t read it. You so clearly didn’t read it
What to do? In 2012, researcher Kathyn Gillespie visited a livestock auction for her paper Witnessing Animal Others: Bearing Witness, Grief and the Political Function of Emotion. The experience showed an erasure so complete that, even with the suffering bang in front of them, the crowd saw nothing amiss. “The audience was filled with buyers and spectators talking cheerfully about the animals, prices, their farms and families,” writes Gillespie. “For humans who farm and are in the animal product industry, the auction is a jovial place where they can come together for some lighthearted banter and a meal in the auction canteen. The auction is not scripted as a place of human or animal grief. Animals’ lives and bodies in this space are thoroughly commodified, their suffering illegible to the accustomed observer, the violence against them made mundane through its regularity.“ (3)
Emphasis mine
not to mention that it barely relates to the topic, that , might i remind you, being “is veganism a virtue” smuglord smuglord smuglord
Another problem is that farm animals don’t talk much about their feelings, ro we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them, thus we can’t say whether we’re helping them by stopping the process
You fucking brought it up!! Jesus christ carnists are some of the most navel-gazing smuggest pieces of reddit-brained shits out there.
Another problem is that farm animals don’t talk much about their feelings, ro we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them, thus we can’t say whether we’re helping them by stopping the process.
Pure cope. We know how badly animals are hurt by factory farming methods, and there isn’t a non-factory method that I’m aware of that can meet the demand for meat.
But that raises another question: “how one would know if they’re happy, if they never experienced happiness?”
How do I know you’ve ever been happy? I’ve never seen it, so I can assume you haven’t, right? (This is how nonsensical your argument sounds. We can see farm animals get excited about things the experience, like happy cows skipping to their field)
how do i know you’ve ever been happy?
bruh, how do *I* know if i’ye ever been happy? in my experience, happiness is a mere appreciation that something got better than it was before.
we know how badly animals are hurt…
no we don’i. Just like with any other alive being, we can only assume, based on what that alive being is communicating, and our personal perception of reality and experience. A human can be hurt, but we won’t know, as long as they won’t communicate. Everything else is an assumption.
You might say that lack of communication doesn’t imply lack of causd harm, and i’d agree with you, but if we’re so much concerned on the caused harm — ad absurdum, we should become autotrophes, as plants have systems for signaling when they’re being harmed too. This liiterally serves the same purpose as our “feeling hurt”.
Farm animals were raised with a single purpose of being farmed, and wouldn’t have existed otherwise. Lucky is a pig that was chosen to be a pet rather than a meat, but so as lucky is a man born ta a wealthy eenough environment to chose when what and where they want to eat.
I have a vanity of choice now, but not so long ago my diet consisted of buckwheat, occasional veggies, and even more occasional meat, as a treat, when the days were good.
And once again, veganism is higly moral, as long as you count every chicken breast you haven’t bought as a saved life. And i think you should do it if it makes you happier, but the meatgrinder won’t stop or even slow down, not to mention that in reality, we’re all are bastards, and i’m not talking just humans, life itself is all about “eat or be eaten” and always were.
Trust me when i say that chickens don’t concern themselve with morality, i’ve lived in a village and seen some shit they can do to their kin. Just as, basically any animal.
So if you’re really so good of heart and highly moral, you better help a fellow human in the first place. Paradoxically, we’re the most moral species there are, and the most capable in terms of doing more good, despite all the atrocities. Before thinking about making happy animals, let’s think about making happy humans, it’s just more optimal this way.
So, is veganism moral? Yes, if you don’t think about it for too long, as long as it’s only your choice, and as long as everyone else in close viscinity already received help from you.
I think buddhists is a good case for highly moral veganism. Otherwise, veganism is a hobby with dubious goals. No judging tho, everyone has those. I too enjoy my hobbies for the process and not for the result.
no we don’i. Just like with any other alive being, we can only assume, based on what that alive being is communicating, and our personal perception of reality and experience. A human can be hurt, but we won’t know, as long as they won’t communicate. Everything else is an assumption.
Yes, we do. We can easily see how they respond to stimuli; they cry out in pain when wounded, show fear reactions when presented with dangerous stimuli, and show signs of grief and loss when another animal/person dies.
Like, this isn’t up for debate by some random nobody on the Internet, there’s scientific evidence of that fact.
Therefore, this concept is often excluded in definitions of pain in animals, such as that provided by Zimmerman: “an aversive sensory experience caused by actual or potential injury that elicits protective motor and vegetative reactions, results in learned avoidance and may modify species-specific behaviour, including social behaviour.”[4] Nonhuman animals cannot report their feelings to language-using humans in the same manner as human communication, but observation of their behaviour provides a reasonable indication as to the extent of their pain. Just as with doctors and medics who sometimes share no common language with their patients, the indicators of pain can still be understood.
I’m not even going to bother with the rest of your comment considering how far off base you are here.
everything’s up for a debate by a random nobody on the internet. it’s in the internet’s core. You’re just as nobody here as everybody else.
Pain response? Stimuli? Sure. Because they *communicate*. as i said.
Except we were talking about the farming methods, those being: form of containment, nutrition… and yes, it also includes the killing method, which is inherently painful… Except any death is painful.
“i don’t like what you’re saying, so i’m not even finishing reading, let alone answering literally every question except literally the first one”
How intealectually lazy of you. Way to crawl up into your comfortable liittle shell of “morality”. How do you expect the problem to be ever fixed if you can’t even discuss the matter?
I’d say you’re all talk about your righteousness in your comfortable bed, but you’re even less than that, as you’re not even talking.
CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org 5 months ago
judging by the depth of reasoning of my opponents so far, veganism is not only not a virtue, it’s a cope of the fact that ahy life form is inherenly cruel towards the other in a system with limited resources.
I’d like to be dabated tho, cuz it sounds kinda not nice.