The practice is that over half of them move on to “other opportunities” within a couple of years, even if you give them good salary, benefits and working conditions.
In my experience (coming from O&G IT) there’s a somewhat tight knit circle of contractors and businesses tied to specific applications. And you just cycle through this network over time.
I’ve got a number of coworkers who are ex-contractors and a contractor lead who used to be my boss. We all work on the same software for the same company either directly or indirectly. You might move to command a higher salary, but you’re all leveraging the same accrued expertise.
If you cut off that circuit of employment, the quality of the project will not improve over time.
In the US they’re commanding $80k/yr because of supply and demand
You’ll need to explain why all the overseas contractors are getting paid so much less, in that case.
Again, we’re all working on the same projects for the same people with comparable skills. But I get paid 3x my Indian counterpart to be in the correct timezone and command enough fluent English language skills to deal with my bosses directly.
Case in point: starting salaries for engineers in the U.S. were around $30-40k/yr up until the .com boom, at which point software engineering capable college graduates ramped up to $70k/yr in less than a year, due to demand outstripping supply.
But then the boom busted and those salaries deflated down to the $50k range.
I had coworkers who would pin for the Y2K era, when they were making $200k in the mid 90s to do remedial code clean up. But that was a very shortly lived phenomen. All that work would have been outsourced overseas in the modern day.
Our codebase had plenty of janky nonsense before AI came around.
Speeding up the rate of coding and volume of code makes that problem much worse.
I’ve watched businesses lose clients - I even watched a client go bankrupt - from bad coding decisions.
In the past few months I have actually seen Anthropic/Claude’s code output improve significantly toward this goal.
If you can make it work, more power to you. But it’s a dangerous game I see a few other businesses executing without caution or comparable results.
MangoCats@feddit.it 1 day ago
If you’re talking about India / China working for US firms, it’s supply and demand again. Indian and Chinese contractors provide a certain kind of value, while domestic US direct employees provide a different kind of value - as you say: ease of communication, time zone, etc. The Indians and Chinese have very high supply numbers, if they ask for more salary they’ll just be passed over for equivalent people who will do it for less. US software engineers with decades of experience are in shorter supply, and higher demand by many US firms, so…
Of course there’s also a huge amount of inertia in the system, which I believe is a very good thing for stability.
And that was a very uneven thing, but yes: starting salaries on the open market did deflate after .com busted. Luckly, I was in a niche where most engineers were retained after the boom and inertia kept our salaries high.
$200K for remedial code cleanup should be a transient phenomenon, when national median household income hovers around $50-60K. With good architecture and specification development, AI can do your remedial code cleanup now, but you need that architecture and specification skill…
I interviewed with a shop in a University town that had a mean 6 month turnover rate for programmers, and they paid the fresh-out of school kids about 1/3 my previous salary. We were exploring the idea of me working for them for 1/2 my previous salary, basically until I found a better fit. Ultimately they decided not to hire me with the stated reason not being that my salary demands were too high, but that I’d just find something better and leave them. Well… my “find a new job in this town” period runs 3-6 months even when I have no job at all, how can you lose anything when you burn through new programmers every 6 months or less? I believe the real answer was that they were afraid I might break their culture, start retaining programmers and building up a sustained team like in the places I came from, and they were making plenty of money doing things the way they had been doing them for 10 years so far…
From my perspective, I can do what needs doing without AI. Our whole team can, and nobody is downsizing us or demanding accelerated schedules. We are getting demands to keep the schedules the same while all kinds of new data privacy and cybersecurity documentation demands are being piled on top. We’re even getting teams in India who are allegedly helping us to fulfill those new demands, and I suppose when the paperwork in those areas is less than perfect we can “retrain” India instead of bringing the pain home here. Meanwhile, if AI can help to accelerate our normal work, there’s plenty of opportunity for exploratory development of new concepts that’s both more fun for the team and potentially profitable for the company. If AI turns out to be a bust, most engineers on this core team have been supporting similar products for 10-20 years… we handled it without AI before…
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 day ago
It’s clearly not. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have a software guy left standing inside the US.
That’s just a bad business.
More power to you.
MangoCats@feddit.it 1 day ago
India / China can do a lot of things. For my company, they’re very strong in terms of producing products for their domestic market. They’re not super helpful per-capita on the US market oriented tasks, but they’re cheap - so we try to use them where we can.
There’s not a lot of good US software employees standing around unemployed… A lot of what I have interviewed as “available” are not even as good as what we get from India, but we have a house full of good developers already.
While I might reflexively agree, you have to ask yourself: from what perspective? Their customers may not be the happiest with the quality of the product, but for some reason they keep buying it and the business keeps expanding and making more and more profit as the years go by… in my book that’s a better business than the upstanding shop I worked for for 12 years that eventually went bust because we put too much effort into making good stuff through hiring good people to make it, and not enough effort into selling the stuff so we could continue to operate.