Writing tests is the one thing I wouldn’t get an LLM to write for me right now. Let me give you an example. Yesterday I came across some new unit tests someone’s agentic AI had written recently. The tests were rewriting the code they were meant to be testing in the test itself, then asserting against that. I’ll say that again: rather than calling out to some function or method belonging to the class/module under test, the tests were rewriting the implementation of said function inside the test. Not even a junior developer would write that nonsensical shit.
The code those unit tests were meant to be testing was LLM written too, and it was fine!
So right now, getting an LLM to write some implementation code can be ok. But for the love of god, don’t let them anywhere near your tests (unless it’s just to squirt out some dumb boilerplate helper functions and mocks). LLMs are very shit at thinking up good test cases right now. And even if they come up with good scenarios, they may pull these stunts on you like they did to me. Not worth the hassle.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 days ago
As someone who did new hire training for about five years, this is not what I’d call promising.
MangoCats@feddit.it 3 days ago
Agreed, however, the difference between a new hire who requires a desk and a parking space and a laptop and a lunch break and salary and benefits and is likely to “pursue other opportunities” after a few months or years, might turn around and sue the company for who knows what, and an AI assistant with a $20/mo subscription fee is enormous.
Would I be happy with new-hire code out of a $80K/yr headcount, did I have a choice?
If I get that same code, faster, for 1% of the cost?
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 days ago
The theory is that the new hire gets better over time as they learn the ins and outs of your business and your workplace style. And they’re commanding an $80k/year salary because they need to live in a country that demands an $80k/year cost of living, not because they’re generating $80k/year of value in a given pay period.
Maybe you get code a bit faster and even a bit cheaper (for now - those teaser rates never last long term). But who is going to be reviewing it in another five or ten years? Your best people will keep moving to other companies or retiring. Your worst people will stick around slapping the AI feed bar and stuffing your codebase with janky nonsense fewer and fewer people will know how to fix.
Long term, its a death sentence.
Mniot@programming.dev 2 days ago
It always amazes me how few people get this. Have they only ever made terrible hires?
The way that a company makes big profits is by hiring fresh graduates and giving them a cushy life while they grow into good SWEs. By the time you’re paying $200k for a senior software engineer, they’re generating far more than that in value. And you only had to invest a couple years and some chump change.
But now businesses only think in the short-term and so paying $10k for a month of giving Anthropic access to our code base sounds like a bargain.
MangoCats@feddit.it 1 day ago
Agreed… however:
The practice is that over half of them move on to “other opportunities” within a couple of years, even if you give them good salary, benefits and working conditions.
Not in the US. In the US they’re commanding $80k/yr because of supply and demand, it has very little to do with cost of living. I suppose when you get supply so high / demand so low, you eventually hit a floor where cost of living comes into play, but in many high supply / low demand fields that doesn’t happen until $30k/yr or even lower… Case in point: starting salaries for engineers in the U.S. were around $30-40k/yr up until the .com boom, at which point software engineering capable college graduates ramped up to $70k/yr in less than a year, due to demand outstripping supply.
Our codebase had plenty of janky nonsense before AI came around. Just ask anyone: their code is great, but everyone else’s code is a bunch of janky nonsense. I actually have some hope that AI generated code may improve to a point where it becomes at least more intelligible to everyone than those other programmers’ janky nonsense. In the past few months I have actually seen Anthropic/Claude’s code output improve significantly toward this goal.
Definitely is, the pipeline should continue to be filled and dismissing seasoned talent is a mistake. However, I suspect everyone in the pipeline would benefit from learning to work with the new tools, at least the “new tools” in a year or so, the stuff I saw coming out of AI a year ago? Not really worthwhile at that time, but today it is showing promise - at least at the microservice level.
korazail@lemmy.myserv.one 3 days ago
That new hire might eat resources, but they actually learn from their mistakes and gain experience. If you can’t hold on to them once they have experience, that’s a you problem. Be more capitalist and compete for their supply of talent; if you are not willing to pay for the real human, then you can have a shitty AI that will never grow beyond a ‘new hire.’
The future problem, though, is that without the experience of being a junior dev, where do you think senior devs come from? Can’t fix crappy code if all you know how to do is engineer prompts to a new hire.
“For want of a nail,” no one knew how to do anything in 2030. Doctors were AI, Programmers were AI, Artists were AI, Teachers were AI, Students were AI, Politicians were AI. Humanity suffered and the world suffocated under the energy requirements of doing everything poorly.
MangoCats@feddit.it 1 day ago
I work at a large multi-national corp with competitive salaries, benefits, excellent working conditions, advancement opportunities, etc. I still have watched promising junior engineers hit the door just when they were starting to be truly valuable contributors.
So, my perspective on this is that : over the past 12 months, AI has advanced more quickly than all the interns and new hires I have worked with over the past 3 decades. It may plateau here in a few months, even if it does it’s already better than half of the 2 year experienced software engineers I have worked with, at least at writing code based on natural language specs provided to it.
And I absolutely agree, the junior dev pipeline needs to stay full, because writing code is less than half of the job. Knowing what code needs writing is a huge part of it, crafting implementable and testable requirements, learning the business and what is important to the business, that has always been more than half of my job when I had the title “Software Engineer”.
While I sympathize, the energy argument is a pretty big red herring. What’s the energy cost of a human software engineer? They have a home that has to be built, maintained, powered, etc. Same for their transportation which is often a privately owned automobile, driving on roads that have to be built and maintained. They have to eat, they need air conditioning, medical care, dental care, clothes, they have children who need to spend 20 years in school, they take vacations on cruise ships or involving trans-oceanic jet travel… add up all that energy and divide it by their productive output writing code for their work… if AI starts helping them write that code even 2x faster, the energy consumed by AI is going to be trivial compared to the energy consumed by the software engineer per unit of code produced, even if producing code is only 20% of their total job.
I would say the same goes for Doctors, Teachers, Politicians, etc. AI is not going to replace 100% of any job, but it may be dramatically accelerating 30% or more of many of them, and that increase in productivity / efficiency / accuracy is going to pay off in terms of fewer ProfessionX required to meet demands and/or ProfessionX simply serving the world better than they used to.
My sister in law was a medical transcriptionist - made good money, for a while. Then doctors replaced her with automatic transcriptionists, essentially the doctors quit outsourcing their typing work to humans and started trusting machines to do it for them. All in all, the doctors are actually doing more work now than they did before when they had human transcriptionists they could trust, because now they are have the AI transcription that they need to check more closely for mistakes than they did their human transcriptionists, but the cost differential is just too big to ignore. That’s a job that was “eliminated” by automation, at least 90% or more in the last 20 years. But, it was really a “doctor accessory” job, we still have doctors, even though they are using AI assistants now…
homura1650@lemmy.world 3 days ago
New hires are often worse than useless. The effort that experienced developers spend assisting them is more than it would take those developers to do the work themselves.
MangoCats@feddit.it 2 days ago
Yes, this is the cost of training, and it is high, but also necessary if you are going to maintain a high level of capability in house.
Management loves the idea of outsourcing, my experience of outsourcing is that the ultimate costs are far higher than in house training.