Comment on US Olympic policy change bans transgender women in women's events
fipto@lemmy.world 4 weeks agoThis theoretical scenario about transitioning just to win medals seems like a strawman argument. And the question of “who is stealing medals” is loaded.
…But let me back up a bit to where we probably agree.
Of course these athletes don’t want to take steroids, because… these are not the type of people who want to do that.
I’d like to believe that trans athletes do want to win, AND that they have good intentions. (not trying to steal medals).
Let’s put ourselves in their shoes - these athletes get to participate in the sport they love at a high level, and their transition is affirmed. So this is the best of both worlds for them.
If it turns out there is still an advantage left over, however small or large, I don’t think the althetes would want to acknowledge it for fear of their opportunities being taken away. This is understandable, no?
As it turns out, estrogen doesn’t overwrite absolutely everything. Skeletal structure (taller, longer arms), lung capacity, and heart size for example… these can all give an athletic advantage.
I think these are important to consider.
webadict@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
See, the thing is, I disagree. No one would take the years it takes to transition for the unknown potential advantage. We do not know what amount of advantage or disadvantage transitioning would give, and the evidence we currently have says that there isn’t a statistical advantage.
These policies don’t even protect cis-women. Women born with hormonal abnormalities or genetic advantages are directly impacted. These are seen as beneficial in male competitors (Michael Phelps is a genetic lottery winner and should probably be in his own league), but if a woman happened to benefit by having naturally higher testosterone production, height, or skeletal structure, should she be excluded from competing against women? Then the only difference between that hypothetical trans athlete and cis athlete is… That they are trans.
Most of this issue is really due to how we segregate sports. We arbitrarily use gender/sex because there are genetic and cultural differences that mostly correlate to difference in outcomes. There are better ways to segregate sports (ala weight classes in boxing) that would more fairly match opponents, but we don’t do these. Why? Mostly laziness, somewhat historical systems of oppression.
So, no, I don’t agree. When you can find a trans athlete that transitioned for am advantage, I will acknowledge your point.
fipto@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Let me clarify a bit - that’s exactly what we agree on: that no one transitions for the advantage. Cause that would just be rediculous. So no, I can’t provide you an athlete who transitioned for that reason…
but that doesn’t make my concerns invalid, because it doesn’t all rest on that point. People can have good intentions and still cause a result that is unfair (but not because they wanted it to be unfair). That’s why I see the hypothetical scenario as a strawman/diversion.
I might respond to the rest later, but I wanted to at least get this out for now.
webadict@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Your argument is that these are unfair, but I pointed out the exact scenario you are saying is unfair. You can argue that any biological difference a trans woman has compared to a cis woman is unfair, but does that mean a cis woman who has all of those things is also unfair? And if the answer is no, then… Why is there even a problem?
These aren’t inherently unfair. They are perceived to be unfair because of how we segregate these sports and because we automatically just assume trans women are stronger, better, faster, etc than cis women, which isn’t true. Again, the statistics we have show that cis and trans athletes have a statistical advantage in a wide variety of sports and activities between 7% to -13%.
Like, we see similar outcomes for trans men, and these concerned people do not give a shit about those athletes. You would think trans men would absolutely fail compared to men, given how poor these people think female athletes compare, but they don’t. They do just as well compared to their cis counterparts.
Hell, several sports are starting to have women with results similar to men. Sure, a lot of weight and strength-based sports still see substantial differences, but many stamina- and speed-based sports are becoming quite competitive. This is why cultural differences also matter. A lot of our sports and health science is geared towards male athletes, and we treat female sports and competitors as lesser, from how we fund them to how we train them.
fipto@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
I was busy the last few days but I think this conversation is important.
I’m right there with you for lots of the things you bring up. Women’s sports are severely underfunded, and women’s accomplishments are severely under-appreciated. What would you name as the reasons for this outcome? I think there are many… For one, many people are sexist and just don’t care for women’s sport. Another reason is that women’s sports are on average less extreme. Men are setting the records and pushing the human boundaries when it comes to sport. Women are pushing boundaries, too, (within women’s specific sports categories), but generally not beating the highest of all human records.
On average, women have significant disadvantages when it comes to sport… The short list I gave previously is obviously non-exhaustive. This is why women (as a class) outperform men (as a class) when it comes to physical sports. <- just so its very clear, I’m speaking of classes here, not individuals.
One class out-performing another then brings about the most natural way to make categories in sports: sex. This way, each class can have their own champions. Women are given opportunities to win in fairness and gain recognition for amazing feats.
Ultimately you and I are both concerned with giving the best possible opportunities to athletes. The whole idea of sports is that there is an established class who is participating, and within that class - may the best competitor win. Because of the stark differences in outcomes among men and women competitors, the easiest and most fair class distinction to draw is based on sex. It uplifts women as a class, and gives women a spot on the largest stages. I think this is a wonderful thing, and I would never want to threaten it.
So that’s my perspective. As a quick direct response, (so I don’t seem as if I’m avoiding anything):
Thanks for the good discussion, and for the patience.