Comment on Without the precursor of Spirituality and Religion, there can be no morality.
Arkouda@lemmy.ca 3 weeks agoThe need for a consistent moral code that is enforceable through fear of God instead of fear of force.
I’d disagree with that as well. I believe that “why did that storm happen?” “Why did drought kill everyone?” Etc - “the spirits and gods are angry!” As an answer in the absence of the level of scientific knowledge to expain it is the starting point.
Bear in mind that these questions will have existed before complex language developed. And you can’t develop a widespread religion without consistant communication. You can’t form the concept of a spirit or god without generations of discussion.
I’d disagree with that as well. I believe that “why did that storm happen?” “Why did drought kill everyone?” Etc - “the spirits and gods are angry!” As an answer in the absence of the level of scientific knowledge to expain it is the starting point.
Bear in mind that these questions will have existed before complex language developed. And you can’t develop a widespread religion without consistant communication. You can’t form the concept of a spirit or god without generations of discussion.
My point is you cannot form a consistent “morality” in a species without first developing spirituality and religion through generations of very small groups of people making shit up to explain the world around them, and all evidence we have suggests that all early humans had spiritual practices and the unifying of those practices caused our population to grow with a “universal morality”.
Philote@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
It’s basic survival evolution. You don’t leave dangerous things around for fear of harm which goes against basic survival instinct. Everything that doesn’t evolve to survive goes extinct. All of our “morality” is to improve our chance of survival. Long ago we evolved to seek food and reproduce, it all stems from that. If you want to pin that basic life programming on some sort of source, I can get behind that to a degree, beyond that you cannot prove any interaction of religious entity. It’s our pattern recognition brains filling in the gaps with our own unique stuffing based on individual surroundings and oral/written tradition. Once again it’s all survival instincts because fear of the unknown can create anxiety, stress and ill health. When a child asks why, we have to alleviate their fear even if we don’t actually know the answers, hence fairy tales and religion, otherwise known as lies. You lie the same lie enough and you start to believe it yourself as true.
Arkouda@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
My statement does not argue for a religious entity existing. I do not believe in a “God” because all evidence we have suggests there isn’t one.
My point is that all the evidence we have suggests that humans, including pre-civilization humans, had distinct spiritual practices including burial. Without evidence suggesting otherwise, I think it is safe to assume that spirituality was a required catalyst in order for a unified moral code to exist and human group populations to grow.
Philote@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
This is a fun conversation FYI. So all living creatures have a spirituality construct that is required for them to survive millions of years. There are many social creatures on this planet, are you suggesting they all have a shared spirituality guiding their morals in order to survive. If so interesting thought, if not why are we required to have one but not them. My opinion is spirituality is a by product not a necessity.
Arkouda@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
I agree, which is what I was hoping for. haha
My point is it isn’t found in all group species. Our species is obviously, and clearly, different.
That being said, other species have been observed doing what appear to be spiritual practices. These species usually exist in larger groups than other animals.
Take Elephants as an example. They stop in the spots that their matriarchs died in and pay tribute. They have been seen bowing at specific trees and landmarks along their migration paths. Is it elephant Religion? I don’t know because I am not an Elephant. But it looks spiritual to me.
Ants are also interesting in this conversation, as they seem to operate in a “God king” like society. Power is obviously centralized, they have agriculture, territory and borders, take slaves and have wars over resources. I have seen studies on observations on strange behavior some ants have exhibited that seem “cultural” or “spiritual” in nature.
Then look at wolves. Family units, small packs, exhibit high levels of intelligence but don’t seem to exhibit “spiritual” behaviors.
Considering our example as the biggest species on the planet currently, and the fact that spirituality and Religion have always been a part of our societies, it seems to me that some idea of “bigger than me” is required to truly unify a species and allow for larger groups.
I believe we are now at the point where both Religion and Spirituality have become redundant because the debates have been had, the evidence is in, and all of it suggests we made that shit up. It served its purpose, and now we need to move on.
We can still learn from all of that debate and history though. A lot of “Answered questions” are interesting to ponder in their own right.
Philote@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Your initial post said religion and spirituality so I made some assumptions on your meaning.
Arkouda@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
People are incredibly intolerant of anyone who they believe to have “spiritual” or “religious” beliefs, so I get it.