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SpicyColdFartChamber@lemm.ee 3 weeks agoHey I’ve read the books (Yes, I am obnoxious). But I don’t remember any time when he was possessed by sexy underwater cuthulu creatures to kill melisandre. He wanted to murder her of his own fully concious accord.
Please explain.
Z_Poster365@hexbear.net 3 weeks ago
3 times in the books characters come back differently after miraculously surviving drowning. There are thousands of repeated myths of “Merlings” or “Silkies” in the ASOIAF universe, and we even see some hybrids (Biter is confirmed). Their whole thing is getting humans to make sacrifices to them, and they reproduce via humans. They have some abandoned land cities throughout the world like in Yeen and in Moat Cailin from when they were more powerful in ages past. They are worshipped by the Iron Islanders, given sacrifices, worshipped by the people of the Thousand Islands and feared by everyone who lives along the coast who all have Merling related cultures. It has something to do with the meteor of black stone that the bloodstone emperor called down from the heavens and crashed into the ocean to cause the Long Night (at least 3 places were hit by meteor(s), those being Bloodstone Island breaking the arm of Dorne), the Iron Islands, flooding the Neck & Stygai by the Shadow outside Asshai). This evil meteor seems to be sentient in some way and related to the red meteor from the series, hence why it heralds the 2nd long night. The traditional Maester’s explanation of the Hammer of the Waters being brought down by the Children makes no sense whatsoever, they hate the Long Night and fight against it. They didn’t cause it, and breaking the Arm of Dorne to stop the First Men coming over makes no sense because at that point millions of First Men were already there. Damage was done.
The first time we see water-based personality change and magic is Patchface, the most clear case. His ship was lost in a storm and he somehow survived 3 days in the ocean, washing up with the dead bodies but was still alive. From that point forward his personality completely changed and he started spouting what we as readers know are cryptic prophetic messages. He is clearly magical and in tune with either a god or something feeding messages and instructions to him. He’s not just crazy, he is prophetic. This was outside Storm’s End on the East Coast of Westeros.
The second time we see water-based personality change is The Damphair. Aeron Greyjoy was a partier and more chill guy before drowning in a shipwreck and coming back obsessed with the Watery Halls and the Iron Islander’s religion of worshipping the Deep Ones. The Iron Islanders used to be slaves and feeding/breeding stock to the Deep Ones (like those on the Thousand Islands) before the Grey King sailed from Essos and elevated their race from slavery. That’s why their culture is a mix of Deep Ones worship and Mariner culture from The Great Empire of the Dawn. Aeron is attempting to fight against his blasphemous brother Euron and is very clearly influenced by a severe change in personality from his time drowning and being “saved”.
The last time we see water-based personality change is Davos Seaworthy after he should have drowned in the Battle of the Blackwater Bay. He wakes up delirious and with an immediate driving compulsion to kill Melisandre, even though she had nothing to do with the deaths of his sons (Stannis was equally responsible for the botched siege but Davos doesn’t get mad at him). He then attempts to kill her based on his sea-hallucinations and delusions before being captured and given time to calm down. It seems his personality change was the most minor and temporary, possibly because he drowned the least badly.
What is the agenda of the Deep Ones? Possibly to bring about the 2nd long night and bring down another meteor, or possibly just to regain their ancient power and farm humans openly again. The rock pollutes the water (as seen in Stygai) and mutates the fish and wildlife. It’s possible that these soapy, oily black stones in the ocean are actually the origin of the Deep Ones or the source of their powers.
Deep Ones are Real: www.youtube.com/watch?v=67NrU0uZo2k
Aeron got Patchfaced: www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4kim_eNuYs
Moon Meteor Theory: www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUYAufRp5nI
SpicyColdFartChamber@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Oh Wow, I am pretty sure in the 100 sq km of where I live, I am in the top 10 game of thrones weirdos, but I have never heard of this theory - specifically the part about the “Sentient Meteor” and “Bloodstone Island breaking the arm of Dorne”. That said, I like this part of the theory.
I know they did that, but I always thought it was limited to only a very few people.
Ehh… The dude’s a misogynists as well, did the deep ones program that in him too or leave that in? People change after near death experiences, I am sure Martin is playing with that rule. But I can still see it.
That is an interesting… speculation - tenor.com/…/interesting-speculation-the-terror-re…
See, this one is just not believable.
People aren’t rational beings. He, of course, wouldn’t hurt his liege lord, but a foreign woman influencing your lord? She’s the perfect scapegoat for his monkey brains at that moment. Dude lost four sons, he has to cope with the fact that he willingly let them all go into battle for a man whose odds of becoming the king are very low.
Also because I don’t like this fact. ‘Least Badly’ is not the modus operandi of the gods in ASOIAF. The magic in ASOIAF is cruel, weird, erratic, costly and full of mockery. I don’t think deep ones would just leave him like that. And I don’t think martin meant it and if he did, I’d chalk that up to “overwriting”. Though, he’s good at avoiding that. (so far)
Sure there are aspects to this that I like, but I think it too often veers into the territory of “He is the chosen one” or “My brother is actually cold hands or the hound is the grave digger” for my tastes. The way GRRM executes the chosen one story line is the most interesting one out of all the other authors, but it still is a chosen one story line. I like things to be less connected, that gives the world a sense of massive scale and depth.
Thanks for the videos, I have something new to binge.
Z_Poster365@hexbear.net 3 weeks ago
ACoK 58 (Davos III) is the relevant chapter here, the Battle of Blackwater Bay from Davos’ POV. The only time he mentions Melisandre is that he’s glad that Stannis left her behind because otherwise everyone would credit victory to her sorcery. After he drowns, he about faces and gets immediately pissed that Melisandre wasn’t there to save his family - which you could chalk up to hypocrisy from Davos, but you could also say is a distinct change in his opinions.
Davos recognizes during the battle that it was lost due to A) wildfire and B) the chain boom that Tyrion set up. Neither of these would indicate he should be mad at Melisandre for some reason.
SpicyColdFartChamber@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
But he had lost so many of his sons, that would change any man’s constitution. It’s a deeply traumatic event.
True, I don’t remember it well enough. But, stranger things have happened, people look for things to blame after traumatic events even when there’s no one to blame.
I’d say we can’t expect him to be perfect. Though I suppose, it could be possible. I’d have to read it again.
Hmmm, True that.
But, like you said GRRM likes to repeat themes and such. I don’t see how insinuating that Davos may have been possessed affect the story line in anyway. But I suppose, that’s where Euron’s plot could come in.
See, now that part does make a little sense. I always thought those chapters felt like a different story. Why not skip to the Manderlys, why linger on the three sisters, right? (it could have been an effort to expand upon the world building, but story wise, it still feels weird)
I guess you’ve convinced me that there’s something going on with the Davos plot. If Martin truly meant it, it would be interesting to see. I wonder what’s the skagos storyline going to be like and if Rickon will have something to do with the Deep ones. The skagosi are also known to be cannibals right? I wonder if there’s a connection between them and the deep ones. Some sort of feral mixed form of worship of the old gods and the deep ones.
Z_Poster365@hexbear.net 3 weeks ago
I would also add that Davos has the most Merling related content of any POV characted save maybe Briene. He sails to the Three Sisters, speaks with the Borrells about their 5000 year old fishy-person mark, goes to the Merling Court of the Manderlys (also definitely merling hybrids, anytime you see fat cannibals be on the lookout).
Brienne is the one who speaks with Nimble Dick and gets the lore dump on Merlings, as well as the one who fights Biter and gets her face eaten by him. Read that fight with Biter, it’s very obvious she’s not fighting with a human being. She’s jamming her armored gauntlet into his eyes and punching his face like 10 times and it does nothing to him whatsoever but is described as hitting a bit wet ball of dough. Brienne of Tarth shoving her armored gauntlets into your eyes should do something to most normal people.
Z_Poster365@hexbear.net 3 weeks ago
Correct me if I’m wrong, but before he drowns he has no such compulsions to kill Melisandre even as the battle is going to shit and he witnesses the death of his sons. He knows this would be treasonous, and Davos would not commit treason. It’s only after the drowning that this compulsion arrives.
I would update my theory a bit here and word it better. I instead posit the severity of personality change has to do with how strong of a identity/ego the person had before drowning. Similar to how hard it is to warg a human vs. a Hodor (because Hodor has been “emptied out” of ego/identity. Patchface was a child who was raised as a slave, hence why he was totally wiped and made full Deep Ones thrall. Aeron was 16 and still a youth, but a bit more developed in his identity as a Greyjoy. He also had a surrounding culture of Deep Ones worship to calibrate himself to, a context in which his hallucinations and delusions made sense and in fact were revered by others. Patchface is mocked and seen as crazy, Aeron is seen as prophetic and wise because of where he is.
Davos is middle aged, very comfortable with his identity, very secure in his family and loyalties. He is probably the hardest type of man to manipulate in this way until he goes through destabilizing grief.
I don’t think the Deep Ones “Mind Control” directly per se, they seem to instead implant images and visions and manipulate people in the same way that say, Rh’llor manipulates Melisandre or the Three Eyed Raven manipulates Brann. The drowning just creates the psychic link that allows the transfer of these images.