Comment on The endless battle to banish the world’s most notorious stalker website

• wahming@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  I believe in the tolerance social contract. You deserve rights so long as you respect the rights of others. Kiwi farms has absolutely no respect for anybody’s rights, and hence does not deserve any themselves.

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  • jet@hackertalks.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    I agree with you in principle. My only concern is who is judging, and making the decision that someone doesn’t have any rights. If it’s private companies? That’s going to be very bad for all of us

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    • sab@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Hear hear. Obviously this site should be shut down. But it should be done so on basis of fair trial. Not because of mob justice, or corporations that answer only to shareholders.

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    • wahming@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Right now, this is analogous to having an active shooter walking around gunning down people, and a random person safely elsewhere saying ‘Don’t shoot him, he has rights!’. No, people are actively suffering and dying.

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      • eee@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        Right now, this is analogous to having an active shooter walking around gunning down people, and a random person safely elsewhere saying ‘Don’t shoot him, he has rights!’. No, people are actively suffering and dying. Fix the emergency first, then consider the ramifications.

        The problem is that the ramifications are clear as day and imminent. Other parties have been calling for ISP blocks for the longest time.

        Using your analogy, the active shooter is walking around holding a dead-man’s switch connected to bombs in a few other areas. People like you are saying “it doesn’t matter that bombs are going to explode, just shoot him!”

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      • PostmodernPythia@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        It’s more like there’s an active shooter, and we know any violent techniques we use to stop him will immediately be seen by the right as fair game tactics against us in any context, and used against us in perpetuity.

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      • Cheers@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        Sort of. Corps have become bloated with power and this would just be another notch on the belt, however, if there’s an active shooter, it’s the police’s job to take care of it, not local businesses.

        This should also be a government role to send people like this to trial. We already live in a surveillance state, use it to stop shit heads at least.

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      • PostmodernPythia@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        The right will make pleas that sound equally dangerous to the average fool. It’d be easy enough for them to try to get the very sites that exist to support trans kids and say “we need to shut these down because they’re harming/multilating kids,” like they always say. And then a sympathetic judge shuts them down, I hope you’re happy with the kids you saved now, because there will be so many you can’t.

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  • waterbogan@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    You deserve rights so long as you respect the rights of others

    This is the best approach and one had has far wider application beyond just the internet

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• GentlemanLoser@ttrpg.network ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Paradox of Intolerance in effect

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  • TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    It’s the paradox of tolerance. “A truly tolerant society cannot be tolerant of intolerance.” Not, “A truly intolerant society cannot be intolerant of tolerance.”

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• pqdinfo@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  We are literally talking about people using an Internet service to kill people, in a way the government cannot do anything about without draconian privacy-invading powers.

  You do realize this right?

  Or do you just not care when it’s trans people?

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  • jet@hackertalks.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    If the government can’t do anything about it, why should we empower corporations too? It seems the solution to your scenario would be a more elegant legal system that the government could use to go after people conspiring to commit murder. Which I’m pretty sure are two major crimes already.

    But that’s moot. If you agree that access to communication and the internet is a basic human right, then somebody who is not been legally sequestered, should have access to their basic human right.

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    • pqdinfo@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      If the government can’t do anything about it, why should we empower corporations too?

      Wait, what?

      Because in this specific case, and yes, you have to address it case by case, the government being able to do something about it would involve draconian anti-privacy international web monitoring of a level that’s literally described in 1984, while the corporation being involved merely involves the corporation cutting off a route knowing that it’ll be publicly debated afterwards and may, if the decision is a bad one, result in it losing business.

      But that’s moot. If you agree that access to communication and the internet is a basic human right, then somebody who is not been legally sequestered, should have access to their basic human right.

      No. There is no human right to organize the killing of people because you don’t like a harmless mental condition they were born with. There is, as a result, no absolute right to access the Internet.

      And contrary to this absolutist nonsense that’s been posted about how if an ISP bans even one packet under the most justifiable circumstances imaginable, it means Marsha Blackburn is going to go back in time and propose her laws that she’s already proposed to ban LGBT information from the Internet, ISPs have never provided this kind of absolute right in the first place. ISPs can and do block, and sometimes kick, for any of the following:

      1. Attempting to send email via SMTP except via their own service.
      2. Running a "server"
      3. BitTorrent
      4. (Including this to give you some idea of how this isn’t a new thing) Abusive use of Usenet including spam, trolling, posting pornography into the wrong groups, etc.
      5. Spam

      We tolerate this because… well, we tolerate the anti-spam part and we tolerated the anti-abuse of Usenet parts because we accept that people use the Internet abusively and an ISP, at whatever level, has a right to protect itself, its employees, and even society at large.

      But here you all are claiming that this is all OK, and remaining silent even on the stuff ISPs block that aren’t actually justifiable (what business is it of anyone if I run a webserver from my home or bypass an ISPs SMTP server?), but when it comes to blocking a website whose sole purpose is to organize actions that will result in the deaths of trans people, you all think ISPs should take no action.

      Spam? The worst thing ever.

      Killing trans people? Eh. Who cares.

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      • jet@hackertalks.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        The answer to international conspiracies are hard is not mob justice.

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  • Meowoem@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    You do realise the trans communities will be affected by this too? This isn’t some magic wand that only the good guys can use, republicans will be using it to ban LGBT information and support networks as soon as they can, they’ll wave that think of the children flag and it’ll be too late.

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    • pqdinfo@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      We should let a website organize the killing of trans people and not voluntarily, without government action, block the site, because actual governments are planning to ban trans information from the Internet anyway is a hell of a take.

      There is nothing about this that’s going to change what Texas and the US Congress are already planning to do anyway. They’re not going to switch to putting pressure on ISPs to voluntarily ban LGBT information. They’re passing laws to force it.

      But sure, ISPs shouldn’t voluntarily do the right thing because they’re going to be forced to do the wrong thing. That makes sense!

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      • Meowoem@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        ‘organize the killing of trans people’

        How far can this hyperbole go?

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