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• illi@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Afaik Stalin is resoposible for more deaths than Hitler. Hitler had concentration camps, Stalin had gulags. Neither was much better than the other.

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  • AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Gulag is the russian word for prison. It’s just really easy to make foreign words scary to racists.

    Afaik Stalin is resoposible for more deaths than Hitler.

    The literal uniform wearing german nazis that convinced you of this counted unborn children due to declining birthrates.

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    • Edie@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Gulag is the russian word for prison

      According to wikipedia, no, it comes from the abbreviation of “Main Directorate of Correctional Labour Camps”, in Russian: Гла́вное Управле́ние исправи́тельно-трудовы́х ЛАГере́й (ГУЛАГ).

      If you would consult the chart:

      “system of places for deprivation of liberty”

      You will find “Correctional Labor Camp” under the O.G.P.U (as wikipedia also says). Of course, libs can’t tell the difference between CLC under the O.G.P.U and Colonies under the PC of Justice and will call both gulag.

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    • sudneo@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Gulag = Гла́вное Управле́ние исправи́тельно-трудовы́х ЛАГере́й (Main Directorate of Correctional Labour Camps)

      Prison = тюрьма

      Not a (Russian) native speaker, but still.

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    • passenger@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Just wow at this whataboutism, defending Stalin of all people.

      Gulag is the Russian word for prison, where people die or get sent to the grinder.

      There was this opposing candidate to Putin, where did he end up? Gulag.

      Until Russia gets humane treatment for prisoners, the word gulag deserves the negative connotations it has.

      Ever heard of Holodomor?

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      • AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Ever heard of Holodomor?

        There are enough links in this thread already showing that this is literally nazi propaganda that I think it’s fair to assume you’re a deliberate nazi instead of an idiot getting strung along

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      • Kieselguhr@hexbear.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Ever heard of Holodomor?

        Have you?

        Just between February and July 1933, [Stalin] signed or countenanced nearly three dozen small allocations of food aid to the countryside, primarily to the North Caucasus and Ukraine, as well as the Kazakh lands (which necessitated sharp reductions in the bread rations for city dwellers, many of whom were put on the brink of starvation). All of these actions were woefully insufficient for avoiding the mass starvation in the countryside caused by his policies, in the face of challenging natural conditions. Still, these actions do not indicate that he was trying to exterminate peasants or ethnic Ukrainians. In the Kazakh autonomous republic, probably between 35 and 40 percent of the titular nation—as compared with 8 to 9 percent of Slavs there—perished from starvation or disease, not because the regime targeted Kazakhs by ethnicity, but because regime policy there consisted of forced denomadization. Similarly, there was no “Ukrainian” famine; the famine was Soviet.

        • Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941 by Stephen Kotkin published in October 2017 by Penguin Random House This is a very mainstream Stalin biography by Princeton professor.

        Have you heard what the French did to Algerians?

        Atrocities committed against Algerians by the French army during the war included indiscriminate shootings into civilian crowds (such as during the Paris massacre of 1961), execution of civilians when rebel attacks occurred, bombings of villages suspected of helping the FLN,removed, disembowelment of pregnant women, imprisonment without food in small cells (some of which were small enough to impede lying down), throwing detainees from helicopters and into the sea with concrete on their feet, and burying people alive. Torture methods included beatings, mutilations, burning, hanging by the feet or hands, torture by electroshock, waterboarding, sleep deprivation and sexual assaults.

        Now you’ll say this is whataboutism, but if you always bring up an imaginary genocide like the Holodomor when someone talks about the USSR or Russia, but you never mention this actual mass murder when someone talks about France then you are a giant hypocrite.

        The West was worse by their own metrics of bodycount.

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      • 4n41y4no5@crazypeople.online ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Ever heard of Ireland?

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    • illi@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Gulag is the russian word for prison. It’s just really easy to make foreign words scary to racists.

      While I’m not Russian, accusing a Slav of being racist against Slavs sure is hillarious.

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  • Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The Nazis industrialized mass murder, and deliberately killed millions in the Holocaust. The Soviet prison system was in no way comparable to the Nazi concentration camps designed to murder and kill, this is Holocaust trivialization. Communism and fascism are entirely different, and conflating the two has roots in Double Genocide Theory, a form of Holocaust trivialization and Nazi Apologia. The Nazis industrialized murder and attempted to colonize the world, the Soviets uplifted the Proletariat and supported national liberation movements such as in Cuba, China, Algeria, and Palestine. I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds.

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    • illi@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I didn’t quite intend to put gulags and concentration camps on the same level. But there are some similarities, like being used to disappear political or ideological oponents.

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      • Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Concentration camps were mass execution factories for Jewish people, LGBTQ, Communists, Socialists, disabled people, Slavs, and more.

        The prisons in the GULAG system were genuine prisons, and the political prisoners were largely Tsarists, Fascists, Nazi collaborators, war criminals, and more, and political prisoners were a minority of those imprisoned in the USSR.

        That’s like saying a fish and a tree have some similarities. It’s true, but at the same time fundamentally tries to draw far more similarities than implied.

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  • Kieselguhr@hexbear.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Afaik

    Afaik: written abbreviation for as far as I know: used when you believe that something is true, but you are not completely certain. Internet, email and texting conventions. a/s/l.

    See the thing is, you don’t know shit

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  • Alaskaball@hexbear.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    a bunch of off-topic yakking related to your comment but detracts from the overall post.

    1, how the West treats the word gulag - as seen by your application equivocating them to nazi death camps - is not reflective of reality of it being applied as a catch-all term for prisons. 2, the highest deaths that occured in the Soviet penal system occured during ww2 with source of deaths primarily stemming from nazi POWs 3, the commonly cited numbers of deaths that occured in the Soviet penal system comes from an openly flawed and biased methodology chosen exclusively to fabricate a false reality that equivocates nazi fascism with Soviet communism, which was further boosted by the CIA during the cold war to smear their ideological opposition’s image. The real numbers have been revealed with the opening of the Soviet archives after the fall of the Soviet Union, allowing actual historians to access primary sources to clear up the cold war era historical revisionism that obscured our understanding of the truth for the past 80 years. 4, this is not to say the system ran in that era is flawless. It in fact had blemishes and flaws that stemmed from the monstrously brutal tsarist regimn that the Soviets overthrew. That said even at its worst during the second world War its own brutality is dwarfed by the American penal system from back then to this very moment. Here’s an article that discusses “double genocide theory”, which dissects the fact that equivocating the worst excesses that occured under the Soviet Union as being anything remotely near the monstrous crimes against humanity perpetrated by the German Nazi regimn is to commit and engage in Holocaust denialism jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory Here’s an excerpt from a book that lightly delves into the numbers, but there’s plenty of other information floating around as well. hexbear.net/post/136521?scrollToComments=false

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    • illi@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      the fact that equivocating the worst excesses that occured under the Soviet Union as being anything remotely near the monstrous crimes against humanity perpetrated by the German Nazi regimn is to commit and engage in Holocaust denialism

      Now let’s be clear. I was talking death counts. And I do believe that the Nazis were worse. I saw Auschwitz and Birkenau camps and those are sights that I will never forget. I get chills just remembering it. So please do be cautions who you call holocaust denier.

      But we are still comparing two evils here. One is greater, one is lesser. But “lesser” evil doesn’t necessarily mean the evil was small.

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      • AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Now let’s be clear. I was talking death counts. And I do believe that the Nazis were worse. I saw Auschwitz and Birkenau camps and those are sights that I will never forget. I get chills just remembering it. So please do be cautions who you call holocaust denier.

        You’re repeating nazi propaganda deliberately created to be holocaust denial so honestly fuck how you feel about yourself. If someone has a robust and well supported reason to call you a holocaust denier why the fuck would you respond with a hollow ‘how dare you’

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      • Alaskaball@hexbear.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        optimistically prison reform and eventually abolishment would be the best course of action altogether. There’s really no shades of grey in stating that the penal system as we’ve known it through out history has been and currently is a barbaric institution of vindictive cruelty by man against their fellow man. That said, i’ll return to the comparison you’re making and emphasize again you’re making a false equivocation between the two. It would be more accurate to compare the former Soviet penal system to the American penal system than it would be to compare the former Soviet penal system to the former Nazi German genocide camps. There were no Soviet Auschwitz Concentration Camp, no Soviet Birkenau Concentration Camp, no Soviet Sisak Concentration Camp, no Soviet Salaspils Concentration Camp, no Soviet Vyritsa Children’s Concentration Camp, etcetera and so forth down the list of monstrous acts perpetrated by the nazi regimn. That is what I mean by saying you’re perpetuating the double genocide theory an thusly perpetuating holocaust denialism. When you make a throwaway sentence such as ‘Afaik Stalin is resoposible for more deaths than Hitler. Hitler had concentration camps, Stalin had gulags. Neither was much better than the other.’ you do the footwork of the neo-nazis on their behalf while you yourself may think and believe otherwise. I think you’re an intelligent and a kind person. I just want to ask you to think twice before making such throw-away comments in our increasingly reactionary rightist world that we’re unfortunately existing in.

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      • Kieselguhr@hexbear.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        But “lesser” evil doesn’t necessarily mean the evil was small.

        You are right, the USA and the UK werethe lesser evil compared to the Nazis, but we should never forget their crimes against humanity, just as we should never forget the flaws of the Soviets, still, the USSr was the lesser evil in the cold war.

        Glad we are clear on that, not sure why you brought up Nazi apologist talking points before like:

        Neither [Nazi Germany or the USSR] was much better than the other.

        It’s important that you visit memorials erected to in the memory of the Victims of Communism, sometimes there are hundreds of names there. I once checked a near one, and decided to google some of the names of the people the evil russkies took to the Gulags. It’s so weird how often they were Axis soldiers accused of heinous war crimes! But Axis soldiers could never! Must have been fabricated!

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  • 4n41y4no5@crazypeople.online ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Congo had giant work camps.

    Pretty much every ideology have commited awful shit. Nazism is the only ideology where genocide is the end goal of the state.

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    • illi@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Yes, I’m aware nazis and communists were not the only ones doing terrible stuff. That doesn’t make it right

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      • 4n41y4no5@crazypeople.online ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Not the point. Nazis were the only ones putting people in ovens. Gulag’s endgoal never went to straight up kill them. Belgians endgoals wasn’t to kill Congolese, it was to make money. Hell even israelis hide their genocide behind security concerns or whatever.

        Nazi Germany’s endgoal was to eradicate non Aryans and they dedicated entire industrial complex to racial hygiene. As such, it’s a step beyond all the gulags, starvation, carpet bombing, terror, March to nowhere you want. They shoved people in fucking oven.

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