Sorry, made edits while you were responding. Covers some issues you have with it.
Comment on dear republicans, what's the point of alienating every single ally of the US?
Objection@lemmy.ml 3 days agoWhat I’m not sure about is what you have an issue with. The money invested into arms replenishment is a boost to US jobs/the economy. Why the complaint that it’s left the treasury?
Virtually every possible use of that money is “a boost to jobs/the economy.” If they spent more on education, teachers would have more money to spend which would create more jobs and stimulate the economy. If they spent the money building trains, it would create more jobs and stimulate the economy. If they spent the money paying people to dig ditches and then fill the ditches back in, it would create more jobs and stimulate the economy. This talking point is complete nonsense and either ignorant or disingenuous. The arms industry is not particularly good for creating jobs/economic stimulus compared to spending the money on other things like education, you’re trying to compare it to what, not spending it at all? That makes no sense.
Not to mention, the investment has been miniscule given the situation, how much is “too much” for peace in Europe/World? There can be no prosperity without security.
That assumes that funding the conflict and building more bombs is necessary to bring about peace and security, which I personally disagree with, but my position on the matter is irrelevant, the original comment was just seeking to answer the question and describe what some people on the right believe. Regardless of whether it’s true or not that the military aid is necessary for peace, many people don’t agree with that assessment.
zenitsu@sh.itjust.works 3 days ago
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Because it could “go to something else”? Sure, anything could go to something else, but you’d have to prove that something else is actually more important/urgent.
Well, I’m a leftist, so naturally I believe that using money on domestic spending to help people is preferable to spending money on bombs to kill people. That’s like, most of what it means to be a leftist. I would like to think that this is the natural, base assumption, and that the argument in favor of military spending is the thing that has to be proven.
If you’d like, I could go on about the many, many domestic crises we’re facing due to insufficient public funding, everything from healthcare to education to even basic infrastructure like bridges. Seems like a bit of a tangent though.
Ultimately, whichever position is “correct” doesn’t really matter. If you don’t address domestic problems then you’re probably going to lose the election and then you don’t get any say in what happens at all, which is, you know, what happened.
It’s been like 80 years of unjustified conflicts that have consistently made the world a worse place before you can find any conflict where US bombs were actually used to improve anyone’s life, including a twenty year long quagmire that we just got out of before this. Despite making things worse for everyone, pretty much every conflict whether it was Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc were entered into with widespread popular support and they all had the exact same justification: that the other side was just like Hitler and they would keep expanding forever unless we got involved. It’s a wonder to me that there’s anyone who still believes in “benevolent interventionism.”
zenitsu@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Ultimately, whichever position is “correct” doesn’t really matter. If you don’t address domestic problems then you’re probably going to lose the election and then you don’t get any say in what happens at all, which is, you know, what happened.
That isn’t “what happened”. What happened was the public got gamed by domestic and foreign propaganda + some sprinkles of misogyny and racism.
Bidens admin was one of the best in a long time and was infinitely more productive than the orangutan could ever dream of being.
But because Biden was too stubborn to not go for a second term, Kamala was placed in a shit position with only 3 months to build a campaign/image, and despite her situation she still performed insanely well because she’s also infinitely more competent and intelligent than the orangutan currently in the white house.
Voters are so fucking dumb and uninformed, that the most googled thing in a bunch of states on election day was “did Biden drop out?” Then decided to vote for the old orange criminal loser, who tries to steal the 2020 election and a few weeks before was ranting on TV like a senile grandpa about the Haitians “eating the cats and the dogs”.
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Nonsense take. Biden dropped out because his brain was melting and it got to a point that nobody could reasonably pretend otherwise, he was also polling like shit, and both of those factors are why he dropped out. Three months is plenty of time to build a campaign, it’s comparable to election seasons in other countries, if anything, it was more advantageous to Kamala for her to be able to skip the primary, especially considering how badly she did in the 2020 primary.
Conditions declined under Biden, in part due to a global wave of inflation that caused incumbent parties to be unseated in many elections around the world. Kamala failed to distinguish herself from Biden’s economic policy despite the fact that purchasing power has declined, and followed his unpopular Israel policy as well.
Your narrative is heavily biased, it’s designed to absolve democratic candidates of any and all blame and shift it onto the voters rather than looking at what actually happened. If the democrats fail to learn from their mistakes, they will keep making them again and again.
zenitsu@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
You’re arguments will require more nuance than “I’m leftist who thinks guns and killing is bad”.
You don’t think the world was better off after US intervention in WWII? Don’t you think more lives would’ve been saved if the allies had been stronger sooner?
The defense of Ukraine is the most justified use of armament in a very long time.
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
As I said, that is the one, singular time in the last 80 years of war that military intervention benefitted anyone in any way. Every conflict is “the most justified use of armament in a very long time.” Y’all just think you’re special because you’re living in the present and think everyone in the past was just dumb, it’s hubris. Bush went into Afghanistan with like a 90% approval rating. There was near-universal agreement that the conflict was justified. 20 years later and millions dead, we have nothing whatsoever to show for it.
I was alive when that war started, and I was part of that 10% who never approved of Bush, and people accused me of being a terrorist sympathizer when I said I thought we should turn the other cheek. The same sort of people now call me a Russian bot or Putin shill for advocating diplomatic solutions now. But I was completely vindicated and they were all dead wrong.
It’s funny that you can’t help but turn to the WWII example even after I preempted it. It’s because it’s an easy, go to justification that you can just plop on to any war ever. If that’s all it takes to get you to support a war, you would’ve supported Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Vietnam, and Korea. The historical record of “wars justified by pointing to WWII” is absolutely abysmal.
But sure, I’ll grant that there are times when the use of force is justified, when you can make a clear argument as to how the average person will materially benefit from it. You can’t do that with this war, except by plugging in the generic WWII line, which is bullshit now just as it always is. The reality is that quality of life is not very different between Ukraine and Russia, it’s just a question of which group of capitalists gets to exploit people.
Again, I want to make the point that regardless of whether you agree or disagree, there are a lot of people who have soured on the idea of “benevolent interventionism” and on this conflict specifically. I’d also mention that I predicted Americans would eventually lost interest in the conflict and move on, as is happening now. We never had a real material stake in the conflict, Russia doesn’t pose an existential threat, and Americans are easily excitable but have goldfish memories. Enthusiasm was always going to wane so unless the conflict was resolved quickly it was always going to result in a loss, and the only question was how long the meat grinder would have to keep running before people could accept it.
zenitsu@sh.itjust.works 3 days ago
I don’t care that “many people don’t agree with that statement”. Who? Republicucks? Right wing grifters on YouTube?
The consensus is that the defeat of Russia is paramount to the West. Especially among those whose opinions are most qualified to opine on the matter.
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Roughly 50% of all Americans. I’m not sure who determines “the consensus” if polls are devided and the side that disagrees just won an election.
zenitsu@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Right wing opinion has been highjacked by the Russians, it’s a compromised crowd.
Conflating the election result with support for Ukraine is also disingenuous, given that most americans actually support sending aid.
Objection@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
That’s the narrowest margin I’ve ever seen described as “a majority” lmao.
If Russia has the ability to brainwash half the country using a handful of bot farms, then I can only imagine what our own, much more powerful and well funded intelligence agencies are capable of.
This whole, “they disagree with me therefore they’ve been brainwashed by Russia” but is tiresome. Sure, Russia has made some attempts to influence public opinion but it’s not nearly as broad as you suggest. Even if it were, that raises the question of why they were so receptive to Russia’s techniques and why your side can’t employ similar ones to persuade them. Honestly, when people say stuff like this, I have to wonder if they really believe it themselves, or if they’re just saying it to discredit the other side or to resolve the psychological discomfort of other people disagreeing about something.