That doesn’t prove that not enforcing them would somehow make murder disappear, iust proves that you can’t absolutely eliminate a behavior. Every action has diminishing returns.
I can remove some of the heat from an object by putting it in the fridge; . can remove more by putting it in the freezer, but that requires more energy. I can remove even more by using more and more sophisticated scientific equipment, but I can never reduce the temperature to absolute zero. That doesn’t mean the soda in my fridge isn’t colder than one on the counter.
Perfect results aren’t obtainable except in trivial cases.
To your point though diminishing returns. When is it worth it. You’ve just a conceded that enforcing said laws don’t actually prevent the crime. I would say enforcement never prevents any crime and enforcement is about punishment not prevention. So when is it worth it? What level totalitarianism an authoritarianism is worth it? How much abuse and Injustice is necessary to assuage your fears about the other? Surely you’re not going to sit here and tell me only fear of punishment is what stops you from murdering people?
Saying “enforcement never prevents any crime” is just naive. Say what you want about the american justice system, but even over there, they’ve incarcerated repeat offenders of assault, robbery, etc. where the incarceration itself most definitely prevents them from harming more people.
If you’re talking about actual prevention, just look to the programs enforced in several European countries that have provably been very effective in taking people who have been living off crime and turning them into productive citizens of society.
Yes, it’s been shown several times that fear of punishment is extremely ineffective at preventing crime. That doesn’t mean law enforcement doesn’t prevent crime. Putting a person that abuses their family in jail most definitely prevents them from continuing to abuse their family.
You’ve just a conceded that enforcing said laws don’t actually prevent the crime
Except I didn’t concede that? I said enforcing laws doesn’t totally eliminate crime, in the same way that putting a soda in the fridge doesn’t drop the temperature to 0K. Enforcing laws reduces crime.
I would say enforcement never prevents any crime
I would say you’re demonstrably incorrect.
and enforcement is about punishment not prevention.
Punishment is the method of prevention. Additionally, incarceration is in part about removing law breakers from pole society so they do not continue to break laws. We quarantine the murderers so they don’t keep murdering people.
So when is it worth it?
As with most things in life, we decide on a reasonable compromise. Putting a soda in the fridge is beneficial, putting it in the freezer is too much, and causes more problems than it solves. We decide these things convectively as a society, by electing representatives to draft laws. When they overstep, we elect new representatives to change the laws.
How much abuse and Injustice is necessary to assuage your fears about the other?
What’s abusive and unjust about trying to prevent murderers? Where’s the justice for victims and their families if as a society we just say “Golly, sorry this guy killed your children, but if we punished him we’d be just as bad”? How do you recommend reducing the injustices people enact against each other?
Surely you’re not going to sit here and tell me only fear of punishment is what stops you from murdering people?
Me personally? Of course not. But obviously some people want to do crimes. You can’t build a society based on everyone behaving just like you all the time. Some people are more violent, or greedy, or deceptive. We are barely domesticated apes, jungle impulses course through us all. Some more than others. Without some mechanism to curtail that, consequences that outweigh the benefits of selfish behavior, you wind up back at might-makes-right anyway when the selfish behave selfishly with no recourse.
What if we focused on resolving systemic issues that might provide motivation to prevent crime? What if we focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment for that that commit crimes anyway?
Sure, you can take any idea to an extreme and shriek things like “authoritarianism!” but that means nothing.
agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
That doesn’t prove that not enforcing them would somehow make murder disappear, iust proves that you can’t absolutely eliminate a behavior. Every action has diminishing returns.
I can remove some of the heat from an object by putting it in the fridge; . can remove more by putting it in the freezer, but that requires more energy. I can remove even more by using more and more sophisticated scientific equipment, but I can never reduce the temperature to absolute zero. That doesn’t mean the soda in my fridge isn’t colder than one on the counter.
Perfect results aren’t obtainable except in trivial cases.
njm1314@lemmy.world 2 days ago
To your point though diminishing returns. When is it worth it. You’ve just a conceded that enforcing said laws don’t actually prevent the crime. I would say enforcement never prevents any crime and enforcement is about punishment not prevention. So when is it worth it? What level totalitarianism an authoritarianism is worth it? How much abuse and Injustice is necessary to assuage your fears about the other? Surely you’re not going to sit here and tell me only fear of punishment is what stops you from murdering people?
thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Saying “enforcement never prevents any crime” is just naive. Say what you want about the american justice system, but even over there, they’ve incarcerated repeat offenders of assault, robbery, etc. where the incarceration itself most definitely prevents them from harming more people.
If you’re talking about actual prevention, just look to the programs enforced in several European countries that have provably been very effective in taking people who have been living off crime and turning them into productive citizens of society.
Yes, it’s been shown several times that fear of punishment is extremely ineffective at preventing crime. That doesn’t mean law enforcement doesn’t prevent crime. Putting a person that abuses their family in jail most definitely prevents them from continuing to abuse their family.
agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Except I didn’t concede that? I said enforcing laws doesn’t totally eliminate crime, in the same way that putting a soda in the fridge doesn’t drop the temperature to 0K. Enforcing laws reduces crime.
I would say you’re demonstrably incorrect.
Punishment is the method of prevention. Additionally, incarceration is in part about removing law breakers from pole society so they do not continue to break laws. We quarantine the murderers so they don’t keep murdering people.
As with most things in life, we decide on a reasonable compromise. Putting a soda in the fridge is beneficial, putting it in the freezer is too much, and causes more problems than it solves. We decide these things convectively as a society, by electing representatives to draft laws. When they overstep, we elect new representatives to change the laws.
What’s abusive and unjust about trying to prevent murderers? Where’s the justice for victims and their families if as a society we just say “Golly, sorry this guy killed your children, but if we punished him we’d be just as bad”? How do you recommend reducing the injustices people enact against each other?
Me personally? Of course not. But obviously some people want to do crimes. You can’t build a society based on everyone behaving just like you all the time. Some people are more violent, or greedy, or deceptive. We are barely domesticated apes, jungle impulses course through us all. Some more than others. Without some mechanism to curtail that, consequences that outweigh the benefits of selfish behavior, you wind up back at might-makes-right anyway when the selfish behave selfishly with no recourse.
theparadox@lemmy.world 2 days ago
What if we focused on resolving systemic issues that might provide motivation to prevent crime? What if we focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment for that that commit crimes anyway?
Sure, you can take any idea to an extreme and shriek things like “authoritarianism!” but that means nothing.
breadcat@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
we should do all that and have law enforcement