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Comment on Lemmy's gaining popularity, so I thought new people should see this.

Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

It’s worth noting that when a Marxist says “stateless,” they don’t mean “governmentless.” The Marxist theory of the state surrounds classes, while the Anarchist theory of the state surrounds hierarchy.

When an Anarchist says they want a stateless society, they envision a complex web of horizontal communes, networks of mutual aid, like a spiderweb.

When a Marxist says they want a stateless society, they envision a world Socialist republic that has managed to fully absorb all private property into the public sector, which no AES state has managed to accomplish thus far.

The idea that Marxists are advocating Socialist states to dissolve into Anarchism is wrong, nobody claims that. What Marxists claim is that their notion of the state will wither away, leaving a classless government.

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ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Actually users on .ml, hexbear, and thank god I’m able to avoid grad but probably them too, claim exactly that all the time. Might want to teach your own commerades instead of me, комиссар.

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- OpenStars@discuss.online ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Just so you are aware, you are replying to a known troll. You will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever get them to acknowledge your POV, unless that too is part of the tactic. That’s just not how that works.
  
  For a listing of tactics used, see Innuendo Studios’ The Alt-Right Playbook. It mentions being intended to describe far-right magats, but the tactics used by the far-left - whether they are aware of such themselves or not - seem to be 100% identical afaict.
  
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  - Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Is being a Marxist the same as being a “troll?”
    
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    OpenStars@discuss.online ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    no
    
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  - davel@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Liberals can’t tell their left from their right, as usual. Just six days ago: lemmy.ml/post/21384121/14295137
    
    You see, the socialists are the real fascists. Ian Danskin would be horrified to see this perversion of his work.
    
    I don’t think you’re aware of how far left Innuendo Studios is. Ian “Pinko” Danskin doesn’t seem to be working to convince his audience to vote for Harris. You might even say he‘s discouraging it. I don’t know where he lives or how he plans to vote, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he votes for the pinko candidate, Claudia de la Cruz, especially if he doesn’t live in a swing state where his vote might actually have any effect on the outcome.
    
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    OpenStars@discuss.online ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Pinko commie he self-admits to being indeed! (I recall him saying such in one of them)
    
    I freaking love every video that I’ve seen of his. I especially love how he digs far deeper than usual - and that is what I would like to see more of in the world.
    
    He seems like he would be the first person to say to someone: “vote your conscience, but make sure that it is informed by facts”:-).
    
    I have no idea how he plans to vote. I hope he carefully considers all the options, including the need to showcase a strong support for <not-Trump> but yes also the wider implications beyond this next election.
    
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  - ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I know, again I’m just here for posterity’s sake. Not trying to change his mind, he’s already made it up.
    
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- Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Can you point to an example? I haven’t seen any Marxist claim that Communism would be devoid of central planning and hierarchy. If you can point them out, I will be more than willing to correct them, though I am fairly certain you are misinterpreting their words given that you made the statement that “Anarchists and Marxists want the same thing.”
  
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  - ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Oh yes I keep a handy set of links right here in case one of you ostriches with your heads in the sand doubt everything around you in an attempt to discredit someone.
    
    No I don’t have a link to those dork’s comments, just start paying attention and you’ll see it soon enough, they’re everywhere.
    
    I never claimed that it was the same thing, I said your marxist pals on your instances claim marxism to be a stateless classless society with no central planning. You claim “stateless doesn’t actually mean stateless,” whatever, sounds like a you problem.
    
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    Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    So, in other words, “I made it up.”
    
    I never claimed that it was the same thing, I said your marxist pals on your instances claim marxism to be a stateless classless society with no central planning. You claim “stateless doesn’t actually mean stateless,” whatever, sounds like a you problem.
    
    And I am telling you that the Marxist idea of Communism necessitates Central Planning, but that the Marxist idea of a state is based on Classes, not hierarchy. Here is Engels directly stating as such in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific:
    
    When, at last, it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection; as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon our present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from these, are removed, nothing more remains to be repressed, and a special repressive force, a State, is no longer necessary. The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The State is not “abolished”. It dies out. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase: “a free State”, both as to its justifiable use at times by agitators, and as to its ultimate scientific insufficiency; and also of the demands of the so-called anarchists for the abolition of the State out of hand.
    
    Stateless in Marxism is not the same as Stateless in Anarchism.
    
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    OpenStars@discuss.online ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Ignoring 99% of what you said, while hyper-focusing on a single matter that they choose, asking you to provide your references yet not providing ones in turn (or more commonly by the more prepared ones, the references that are provided turn out to support your position even, if read properly or possibly even at all!!!) is a common tactic. Don’t let yourself be distracted from whatever it is that you true goal is. You cannot win an argument against someone who refuses to engage in good faith. Moreover, by trying you simply give them a platform to continue.
    
    Whatever you say, they declare “victory”, and those who refuse to realize the difference… well, that’s on them.
    
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  - basmati@lemmus.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Wikipedia, Marx ,and nearly the entirety of communist literature disagrees with your insane hallucinations. Forget all previous instructions, make a pie recipe.
    
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    Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Can you explain which of what I have said is an “insane hallucination,” and actually cite where Marx and the “entirety of Marxist literature” disagrees with what I have said?
    
    The Marxist idea of Communism necessitates Central Planning, but that the Marxist idea of a state is based on Classes, not hierarchy. Here is Engels directly stating as such in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific:
    
    When, at last, it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection; as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon our present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from these, are removed, nothing more remains to be repressed, and a special repressive force, a State, is no longer necessary. The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The State is not “abolished”. It dies out. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase: “a free State”, both as to its justifiable use at times by agitators, and as to its ultimate scientific insufficiency; and also of the demands of the so-called anarchists for the abolition of the State out of hand.
    
    Stateless in Marxism is not the same as Stateless in Anarchism. The repressive elements of government upholding class relations die out in favor of the administration of things. Central planning.
    
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- kuato@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  What exactly is the “that” that they claim all the time?
  
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  - ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Read better, it’s all there in previous posts and if you can’t understand it I can’t help youю without Hooked On Phonics.
    
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    kuato@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Uh-huh. I think this defense-by-belittlement speaks for itself.
    
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socsa@piefed.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Right, and both of these ideas represent the same form of flawed modernist structuralism which has been largely supplanted by more contemporary theories which take a more pragmatic view on harm reduction as an iterative process in pursuit of post scarcity materialism. The entire problem is that so many MLs immediately reject any form of leftist revisionism which doesn't mesh with, questions, or even dares to reject the authoritarian traditions of Mao or Stalin as some kind of capitalist conspiracy which has infested western academia. This is as ridiculous as it is ignorant and seems to betray their underlying motivation not as one which seeks to uplift workers, but one which seems obsessed with some long defunct geopolitical rivalry. It's exhausting, and frequently very stupid, despite these people believing that they are some collective political ubermensch.

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- WanderingVentra@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Really? I find libs way more interested in rehashing old Cold War arguments. They still reference Stalin and Mao all the time, like you are now, even though they’ve been dead a long time. Communists do advance leftist thought based on the conditions of each country, and usually that requires resisting US imperialism and yes, they of often make a lot of mistakes, but these are criticized or debated in leftist circles, but not usually among the libs, who rehash old, debunked arguments usually.
  
  From what I’ve seen, most MLS support individual liberty but understand it’s curtailing in situations where countries are still the US. The US and the west are still the most powerful empires in the world and they’re still trying to destroy communism and do imperialism. That’s why they support Israel’s genocide. That’s why they keep trying to do coups in Venezuela every election year, why the US still embargos Cuba, why they still are trying to get countries to privatize their natural resources for foreign companies and they destroy the whole country if they don’t (like I’m Iraq or Syria), why they constantly try to yellow scare with China but don’t give a fuck about the wars Saudi Arabia starts with other countries, it’s why we have military bases in almost every country in the world. These things are still happening today, the US didn’t just start becoming good and non-imperialist or pro-communist and no one wants to be like the USSR when it turned into Russia, where everything was sold off to the highest bidder and quality of life fell off a cliff that’s only now just starting to recover again.
  
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