Comment on Lemmy's gaining popularity, so I thought new people should see this.

• Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Do you not think your remarks have a bit of a religious flavor to them? Quoting a couple of eccentric academics from 150 years ago as if transmitting their divine revelation. Defending your interpretation of their holy words as if you were a lawyer or a priest. Why not just look to first principles instead, to the values you considerate important, rather than citing a gospel like this?

  I quoted both Marx and Engels, while linking modern analysis and theory at the end. Marxism has a long history with numerous writers, when you say the PRC has “reverted to Capitalism” it’s important to point out that they have more accurately reverted to Socialism. Marxism isn’t a religion, it’s a method of analysis.

  I don’t know what you mean by “look to principles instead.” I have values and principles, I desire humanity to move beyond Capitalism and onto Socialism because Capitalism reaches a dead-end when it gets to the stage it is at today: dying Imperialism and Monopolist Syndicates devoid of competition. Socialism is how we move beyond.

  There are much better ideas for how to replace capitalism, though - spoiler - none of them involve a bloody revolution

  I have yet to see anything succeed in replacing Capitalism without a revolution, so I’m curious what you are referring to.

  This doesn’t mean that Marx had nothing interesting to say. Of course he did. His description of society was revolutionary. But the prescription was disastrous and I feel we would do well to just move on from it at last

  Again, post-revolution, Marxism has dramatically improved conditions compared to previous squalor. It isn’t correct to say AES states have been disastrous, especially when comparing to the horrendous pre-Socialist conditions.

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  • JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This feels like arguing with a Jehovah’s witness. To your credit, you’re not getting annoyed or abusive in the face of my contradiction. But then that’s also a hallmark of religious people: absolute certitude, which provides a certain peace of mind.

    I’ll admit that I had to look up “AES”, which appears to refer to countries that pass the magical litmus test of Marx-Engels Compatibility.

    I will simply sum up my own analysis. The precise terminology of the PRC’s political system is unimportant. What is important is that wherever the recipes of Marx have been tried, the result has been violence, brutality, oppression, famine, economic ruin. I say that as a student of history. Literally: it was my degree. But the facts are in the public domain for all to see. And so I agree with Orwell, who saw it before so many others: there comes a point where you have to accept that the thing is irredeemable, and instead try something else.

    That’s really all I have to say on the subject. Of course I respect your right to your own viewpoint.

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    • Edie@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      What happens if you turn this around?

      The precise terminology of the US’s political system is unimportant. What is important is that wherever the recipes of [Liberalism] have been tried, the result has been violence, brutality, oppression, famine, economic ruin.

      This is all true of course. So what then? Do you also reject Liberalism?

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      • JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        By no reasonable definition of the word “liberalism” has it caused those things on a scale remotely approaching that of communism. This is not controversial.

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    • OpenStars@discuss.online ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      There are those - like Jules Verne, HG Wells, and yes Orwell - who can see far into the future not because they are fucking magicians or whatever, but bc they allowed themselves to see clearly. Which in turn I think comes from mental discipline to ruthlessly weed out the false thoughts that would choke the life out of the true ones.

      Anyway I’m full of trite quotes in this reply I guess but even so, those who don’t learn from their history are doomed to repeat it, and lately I (who lives in America) am very worried about that thought… and yet there too it is history that gives me comfort. No nation (afaict) has ever survived devolving into a 2-party state, but even Rome fell too once upon a time… long may it live.

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    • Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Then as a student of history, are you saying the Tsars, Kuomintang, Batista regime, and so forth were better for their citizenry than the Communists? It’s very well-recorded just how bad the previous regimes were and how dramatically material conditions improved post-revolution.

      This feels like arguing with a Jehovah’s witness. To your credit, you’re not getting annoyed or abusive in the face of my contradiction. But then that’s also a hallmark of religious people: absolute certitude, which provides a certain peace of mind.

      The fact that I have carefully cited multiple different sources from multiple periods and patiently responded to your bold-faced attacks makes me a “Jehovah’s Witness?” What about those supposed “much better alternatives to Capitalism?” Where are those? I have responded to every point you’ve made, and your response has been to belittle me and take the high-ground without responding in kind. That’s rude.

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      • JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Arguing is tiring, and here the payoff will be small since the conversation has moved on, few others are reading. I’ve made my point.

        Look on the positive side. Humans being what they are, it’s not usually reason that wins debates, but rather the agreeableness of the participants. So you’ve probably won this one by default.

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