I agree that your point is usually true. But I am not sure that is the case here. In prior news they alleged that they developed the knowledge as they learned from experience from issues with past fabs. If there are no fabs in the continent anywhere close to what they want to build it’s possible that there aren’t enough workers with all the skillsets they are looking for.
On the other hand they are known to take advantage of the fact that their workers are so specialized that it’s difficult to find alternative job offers so they don’t pay well. They will definitely run into the scenario you described when they look for fab operation staff. At least this is known so many people avoid this field entirely.
eatstorming@lemmy.world 1 year ago
It’s not just the price, it’s the whole package. The only place I’ve seen it being lightly talked about was on the Aug 11th’s WAN Show.
TSMC is a Taiwanese company, therefore they expect workers to follow the Asian/Chinese work culture. Meaning basically living (usually literally) in the company and very rarely going home for a quick visit. None of this western “work/life balance” nonsense, none of the unionization stuff. Oh you’re not happy with something? Do not even dare speaking up, much less grouping up to discuss or protest. Just suck it up and deal with it.
The price is important, don’t get me wrong, but Chinese companies do not want people who won’t take any and everything their bosses say without even a slight hint of question.
lickmysword@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
All of which US companies would love to push onto their employees and work place.
eatstorming@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Yep. The thing is that in the US it’s not readily available, and even if companies do twist the government’s arm to make it happen, it’d still take quite a while for people to accept it (if they ever do in significant numbers).
Also, obligatory reference to the documentary American Factory, where the differences between American and Chinese work cultures are shown in a similar scenario (a Chinese company opening a factory in the US).
some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 1 year ago
I didn’t know about this film, but I just watched the trailer and now it’s on my list. Thanks!
thal3s@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
Thanks! I just added this to my Netflix queue.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Most of that is conflation of Taiwan with China (and let’s not do that) as well as mixing up TSMC with a random Shenzhen factory. Taiwan is definitely fucked, but it is more “America fucked” than “996 fucked”, as it were.
And it is important to understand that TSMC are basically the best of the best in semiconductors. That is skilled labor. I wouldn’t want to work there but if I had to pick a semiconductor factory to work in…
No, the reason that the vast majority of “popular science” tech youtubers have not covered this too much is that it is really a mixture of
So 1 and 2… should be valid but This Is America. But 3 is the real issue. Because we have people who are insisting on getting full salaries while more or less needing to be trained (often for a few years) on the job to be qualified. Versus flying out the people who DO know their shit. Like, we all like to complain that outsourcing usually makes a larger support burden on the parent company. And… yeah.
So most tech youtubers aren’t touching this with a ten foot pole. And LTT have a long history of spewing complete bullshit. Either people worship Linus for “not being afraid to cover a topic” or get angry and they get publicity for “another hot take”.
And basically every other tech youtuber just says “I am not at all qualified to talk about this subject”
coleandfries@discuss.tchncs.de 1 year ago
This guy’s has no idea what he’s talking about. I’m an EE based in Arizona. I work with a lot of people who used to work for Intel, NXP, On Semi, etc. Semiconductor Fabs tend to have a pretty intense work culture. But from what they tell me, TSMC is on a whole 'nother level, and TSMC can’t pay them enough to put up with it’s work culture and expectations. They have the skills but at the end of the day, for them, family and their sanity is more important.
Are there people who will thrive in such conditions? Absolutely, just like I personally know a guy who thrives working in an Amazon warehouse. However, from my experience, people who want to have families and not have their lives revolve around their jobs are not interest in working for TSMC.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 1 year ago
(To a lesser degree every year it seems) In Software and Hardware design, Intel are the big dogs. In terms of fabs? They are woefully behind TSMC (although, there are efforts to narrow that gap and some of the new tech that has been publicly revealed is awesome).
And that is how it plays out in the field. If folk “aren’t good enough” to work for a big company (whether because they lack skills or, more frequently, don’t want to base their life around matching the corporate profile) they emphasize the bad. I am more on the software side than hardware, but the number of stories about how hellish it is to work at Google and Amazon(‘s software side) are insane. And almost always associated with “I could have gotten a job there, if I tried”. And yeah, there are a LOT of problems. Mostly at the lower level (which is comparable to most startup cultures and why people should REALLY look at “mid tier” companies and orgs to get their initial experience). Once you get to mid career, it is well within the normal range.
Which is more or less true for TSMC. Yeah, it is a factory job and those suck. But if you actually compare it to similar orgs (again, ignoring the hellscape that is Shenzhen and the like), they are generally "roughly average’. Worse in some regards, better in others. And, like I said, that SHOULD be unacceptable that this is “average” but… labor has problems the world around and nobody cares enough to stand up for it.
Eldritch@lemmy.world 1 year ago
The Taiwanese were not born gods of semiconductors. They were one of the very first places we massively exported things to like Mexico. They were trained and educated over decades to get where they are now. Even if that was the issue it’s nothing that couldn’t be solved by education.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 1 year ago
But the issue is that they aren’t going to sit on their hands while other countries/companies catch up. In part because “the semiconductor shield” is real. And also because… it is a LOT of money.
Branching out to other countries is… a choice. And I do hope it means we see more proliferation of skills. Because it is a major get for Intel to convince a Taiwanese engineer to move to Tel Aviv or whatever. It is a much smaller lift to convince someone to move from Arizona to New Mexico. Similarly, this has the potential to get TSMC a lot more in house designers for basically the opposite direction.
But this idea of “Oh, we can all learn. just give us time” is (generally) American Exceptionalism bullshit and a large part of how these incentives and tax breaks are being sold to politicians. Because, barring massive revolutions in processes, TSMC will still be on top even as the rest of the world becomes “competent”. And you can bet they’ll keep their best factories in Taiwan because, again, the semiconductor shield. But it will also mean that, when Xinnie the Pooh and china decide it is worth pissing away their economy to attack, the world doesn’t go back to the stone age. More like the bronze or iron.
eatstorming@lemmy.world 1 year ago
You have some good points but I’m not sure TSMC are looking for highly-skilled people to work at their off-site factory. I honestly believe that most, if not all high-skill positions would be filled by Chinese people. They need factory workers to keep the factory running, I seriously doubt they’d expect the US factory to be able to create anything new on its own in the foreseeable future.
But at any rate, your points also show that it’s not just the price at play here.
Lastly, I agree with you regarding LTT. I didn’t mean that they were bringing some insightful new information, just that it was the only place I saw it even being mentioned. I live in mainland China and see how Chinese companies treat employees, that’s where I got my replies from.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Okay, I kind of hinted at this but:
Taiwan is not China. Taiwanese people are not “Chinese”. Please stop mixing the two up. That is the kind of heinous shit that Xinnie the Poo does.
stigmata@lemmy.world 1 year ago
My understanding is that this isn’t even about making the semiconductors, this is just about building the factory in the first place. In this case, Taiwan’s expertise in making chips means fuck all.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Gamers Nexus recently did a really good video about paying contractors to build out their acoustic testing chamber. In theory, that is just “put foam on the walls” but they go into everything ranging from which spikes are foam versus metal, how cabling and ventilation are run, and even what is under the floor.
And that is where the expertise comes into play. Theoretically, any competent contractor can follow instructions and build a fab. If you ever meet a competent contractor, protect them with your life.
The reality is that TSMC is going to be constantly having to fly out their people to inspect construction work, indicate what needs to be redone, etc. At which point… why are they paying others to do stuff they need to redo anyway?