Please read the whole text before commenting. (There are some passages where you might want to add something, because you didn’t see that it’s written in a different passage.) If you read alll of it, I’m open for custructive feedback and hope there will be a constructive discussion. There was a similiar post some time ago: feddit.org/post/10309044

I not only recently had to watch a painful infight evolving in Lemmy’s comment sections. Discussions which weren’t real discussions anymore and felt like an endless comment fight of people who usually have so much in common.

I think I speak for most of Lemmy if I say the following:

Fascism is on rise around the world, has grabbed power in the United States of America and threatens all of us. We –mostly leftists– were able to create a democratic oasis of digital solidarity among like-minded people. A place where everyone can raise their voice, without getting suppressed by our worst digital enemy: BigTech, a tool and puppet of global fascism. For being threatened by fascism, you don’t even have to be a leftist, nor a highly political person at all, all that matters is to believe in democracy. All democrats are welcome, no matter what political attitude they have, we are united by democracy. We are people of all genders, ages, nationalities, languages and religions, agnosticism or atheism. Everyone can talk freely about every topic, as long as one accepts other opinions (may even change their own opinion) and shares the spirit of democracy and consideration. We built this oasis, we are united by democracy, antifascism, freedom, tolerance and independence.

And still we can’t stop fighting against each other? No one here supports the rise of what hates this great community. We should stand together and share the spirit described. We certainly do to some extent, but every time we don’t and instead of discussing start fighting against each other, the fascists will jump for joy, since we support their rise. To based on facts discuss topics together is essential for us, it also is fascism’s worst enemy. But to verbally tear us apart is fateful, it is one of fascism’s best friends. What divides us the most is something we have the least power to change. It’s the ongoing war in Gaza. The Middle East conflicts have divided the minds of leftists/democrats like us for decades and since October 7th, 2023, one of them does even more. Everyone has their own opinion, it’s the way of democracy. Every democrat really interested in a discussion should be allowed to communicate their position. As democrats, we should discuss this topic. But let’s not do it in a way that makes fascists to triumph and us to peter out in an endless fight regarding this topic which we can’t really change. There are so many topics we could influence, one of the most obvious being to be a digital alternative to BigTech’s platforms.

Generally:

  • The most important Usenet-rule for us: Don’t feed the troll. If it’s obvious that your discussion partner doesn’t want to discuss constructively, don’t answer. The most obvious trolls are those with accounts younger than a week (sometimes just insulting). If such an account appears in a discussion: Ignore + report. It might be a good idea to check the account age before discussing with someone.

  • What seems obvious is to argue in good faith.

  • Do not insult anybody, it won’t help you nor anybody else. No lemmy user is a nazi/etc. At least I didn’t see one so far. If you want to insult a lemmy user e.g. as nazi, first calm down, maybe wait some time before responding. If you still want to insult this user, it definitely is the better choice to ignore that user. Calling someone a nazi or insulting in another way is nothing that will help us in any sense. If a user actually advocates nazi ideas, it is a troll. If you want to start insulting: Don’t do it. If it’s a troll: Don’t respond, don’t feed it, just report it and shut up.

  • Please (!) use sources. If you state something which isn’t your opinion or an obvious fact, don’t say “Uh, I heard it somewhere”, but name a reliable source.

  • If there’s already an ongoing discussion between two users, only join it if you have something important to say. It’s not very helpful if there are four people discussing with one person at the same time.

Now to Middle East:

What we should definitely agree on is the meaning of “Zionism”. The simple definition I have in mind is: Zionism is to advocate for the foundation of a Jewish national state (as a result of the Jewish experiences during the holocaust and centuries of persecution) and thus the approval for Israel to exist (which is one of the two conditions we need for a 2 state solution). That’s the most common German definition, but it doesn’t really fit e.g. the US-American definition. We might distinguish between zionism and neo-zionism, etc. German “Zionismus” does NOT mean killing all non-Jews on the territory you want to establish your state. If we can’t find a solution, at least keep in mind that Zionism is defined differently by different people and maybe ask the person you’re discussing with, what they mean by “Zionism”. I saw way to many arguments among fellow lemmings who just had different definitions of Zionism and weren’t aware that their counterparts didn’t have the same definition.

Another difference: Comparing some genocide like the current one in Gaza to the Holocaust/Shoa may be a different thing outside of Germany. But from a German perspective: Claiming some genocide to be like the holocaust is to trivialise the holocaust. Hear me out. The holocaust was exactly one genocide during nazi Germany’s 12 years, an industiralized and detailly plannend murdering of more than 6 million people. A genocide with so many victims hasn’t happend again and since nazi Germany conducted it, Germans are especially aware of the holocaust. There are no “holocausts”, because it’s just this single event. Holocaust remembrance isn’t about ranking human suffering, it’s about preserving the truth of a uniquely horrifying event so that it is never repeated — in its actual form. If you compare the holocaust and some other genocide, then the holocaust starts to be just one genocide among many others. And there’s not even need for comparing them. Every genocide is a tragedy, every death. At the same time, actual German neo-nazis and/or antisemites constantly try to trivialise the holocaust, also by comparing it to other genocides or comparing the millions of German deaths during the second world war. German source. For the reasons described, most Germans (myself included) do not compare the holocaust with anything else and perceive comparsions as antisemitic. Outside of Germany this perspective doesn’t seem to be shared. But now you might understand why comparsions are perceived like that by Germans. If it’s forbidden in German communities to compare holocaust and Gaza, it’s not because criticizing the genocide in Gaza isn’t allowed. Criticizing this current genocide of course is allowed, just comparsions to the holocaust aren’t.

And more concrete for the current war in Gaza, I hope we can find an agreement on the following, I copied the first part (1-49) from here and edited some minor sentence-parts.

  1. Some Jews are shitty and awful people.

  2. Some Muslims are shitty and awful people.

  3. Some Christians are shitty and awful people.

  4. Some Arabs are shitty and awful people.

  5. Some Americans are shitty and awful people.

  6. Some Israelis are shitty and awful people.

  7. Some Palestinians are shitty and awful people.

  8. Not all Jews are Israelis.

  9. Not all Israelis are Jews.

  10. Not all Jews are white.

  11. Not all Israelis are white.

  12. Not all Muslims are Arabs.

  13. Not all Arabs are Muslim.

  14. Not all Palestinians are Muslim.

  15. Not all Arabs are Palestinian.

  16. Not all Palestinians are Hamas.

  17. Texans are not Arizonans.

  18. Germans are not Dutch.

  19. Palestinians are not Jordanians.

  20. Egyptians are not Palestinians.

  21. Where you are born does not actually determine anything about you.

  22. Your passport is not your political beliefs.

  23. Your government is not your morality.

  24. Not all Jews like the Israeli government.

  25. Not all Israelis like the Israeli government. [They actually protest against Netanyahu and the war.]

  26. Not all Palestinians like the Palestinian government. [They actually protest against Hamas and the war.]

  27. Israeli governments have committed acts of terror and violence [=> ongoing genocide] against the Palestinian people.

  28. Palestinian organizations have committed acts of terror and violence against the Israeli people.

  29. US leaders do things that we do not agree with (Trump).

  30. Israeli leaders do things that Israelis do not agree with.

  31. Palestinian leaders do things that Palestinians do not agree with.

  32. What happened to the Israeli civilians on 10/7 is fucking awful, and Hamas has earned every fucking thing that the Israeli military throws at them. [This point is about Hamas, not the genocide. Hamas supresses the Palestinian people and doesn’t care about them dying, but it’s still genocide by Israel which uses the Hamas as excuse. Hamas has earned it, but the civilians are victims of a genocide.][I personally just advocate for peace, but fine.]

  33. What is happening in Gaza to civilians is fucking awful, and not the smartest thing for Israel to do, and some aspects of Israeli military activity may be are war crimes, and it doesn’t have to be genocide for it to be tragic. [As far as I know, meanwhile several international organisations like UN have declared it a genocide, so that part is obsolete.]

  34. You can advocate for Palestine without being a racist, antisemitic piece of shit.

  35. You can advocate for the existence of Israel and some of its actions without being a racist, anti-Arab piece of shit. You can also call the current Israeli government right-wing nationalists since that’s a tenable opinion.

  36. People like to have sex with each other, and they sometimes procreate with people outside their tribes.

  37. No one in the Levant is indigenous. Every fucking empire in history has fucked their way through the Levant. There is no pure indigeneity. And let’s be honest: the entire planet has been colonized by hominids from the Great Rift Valley.

  38. Palestinians and Israelis share paternal Bronze-Age DNA. Yes, even Ashkenazi Jews.

  39. Stop with the fucking history lessons about what the Israelites did, or what the Ottomans did, or what the British did, or whatever. IT IS FUCKING IMMATERIAL. There is a pile of dog shit in the living room. Instead of arguing about whose dog took the bigger shit in the living room, maybe focus on how we clean up the dog shit.

  40. Any people have a right to group together and self-identify as whatever-the-fuck-they-want-to-self-identify as. When they get large enough as a group, those people have the right to self-determination and self-respect and a state where they can control their own destinies.

  41. Whether you like the idea or not, the Israeli state exists. It will also continue to exist until the ISRAELI PEOPLE decide they don’t want it to exist. Your opinion on this matter (if you are not Israeli) is fucking immaterial.

  42. Whether you like the idea or not, a Palestinian state will exist at some point, and it will continue to exist until the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE decide they don’t want it to exist. Your opinion on this matter (if you are not Palestinian) is fucking immaterial.

  43. You cannot bomb a people into true submission — the Blitz did not ‘soften’ British morale.

  44. You cannot fight a war and kill a people’s desire for safety, freedom, and self-determination. You can stifle it. You can try to ignore it, but one way or another, you will have to deal with it. This is as true for my Israeli friends as it is for my Palestinian ones.

  45. The solution to the Middle East conflict will not be found on Threads, or TikTok, or [Lemmy or] in the streets of any city that isn’t within a 2-hour car ride from downtown Jerusalem. [Of course we can still discuss solutions, but we’re not the diplomats who one day will solve it.]

  46. If you want to be an ally to Palestinian people, please feel free to continue to advocate for peace, security, and self-determination, but do it without dehumanizing or stereotyping Israelis and Jews.

  47. If you want to be an ally to Israeli people, please feel free to continue to advocate for peace, security, and self-determination, but do it without dehumanizing or stereotyping Palestinians and, Muslims, and Arabs.

  48. If you just want to advocate for peace, try to be a voice for reason, and don’t inflame or over-simplify an already chaotic, complicated, and deeply emotional issue. Help people find common ground and help bring the temperature down. You can be moral and stand up for what you believe in without being an asshole.

  49. Yes, an amazing one-state liberal democracy where Palestinian boys & girls could fuck Israeli boys & girls & make cute babies, & everybody spoke Hebrew & Arabic & we all agreed that hummus and falafel are delicious and Palestinian and sufganiyot are delicious and Israeli would be awesome. But this wonderful future has about as much chance of happening in the near term as this 5’8" 53-year-old Palestinian has being a starter for the Golden State Warriors. A two-state solution is the only workable one.

  50. Screw Hamas.

  51. Screw the current Israeli government.

  52. Screw the war criminal Netanyahu and his fascist friend Trump.

  53. Screw all the wars of aggression against Israel in the last decades.

  54. Screw the current Iranian dictatorship which btw. supports terror organizations like Hamas.

  55. Screw Hisbollah.

  56. Screw Taliban.

  57. Screw terror organizations in general.

The only ones suffering are the people of Middle East, who would suffer less with a democratic two state solution.

We as Lemmy-users should act as described earlier, constructively discuss the topic. Middle East is one little topic we do not agree on in comparsion to all the great things we can agree on. I hope this post establishes a basis we as Lemmy community can discuss on. There’s so much worse in the world than fellow democrats who don’t share your opinion. Don’t let it divide us, let’s fight fascism together.