Yeah, it’s illegal here in Germany.
Maybe by a strict reading of the rules, but it would certainly be hard to prove that one loop around someone would be illegal. There’s plenty of legitimate reasons to pull in and slow down after travelling at speeds, even if you’ve just overtaken someone.
And it’s dangerous.
I challenge you to explain how this is more dangerous than slowly overtaking someone at nearly the same speed.
Driving is inherently dangerous. Overtaking someone is dangerous. It’s all about the relative significance of the risk - what I’m proposing is not a significant risk in any way, especially when the maneuvers are executed properly and with care, per driver training. Specifically, you pull ahead well in front of them, move over in two moves, then don’t slow down until you’re in the inside lane (and slow down gently with inidication via the brake lights).
I don’t participate in that behaviour. I can’t be angry at the world the whole time.
I’ve only ever done the loop thing when I’m driving in a very relaxed way, like I say it costs me money in excess fuel through accelerating up again. Even without the money thing, it’s the inefficiency of the move that bothers me.
At the same time, living in a country where this is an exasperating problem, it’s nice to be able to communicate with people and have them realise they’re causing a problem. Most drivers I see carry on sat in the middle lane without even realising - at least, until you make a loop, then they quickly realise and pull in. Even pulling into the inside lane and driving away in front of them causes no reaction 98/100 times.
In my experience they’re mostly way past learning anything.
I think this is skewed by your experiences driving in Germany. The standard of driving there is so much better than many other countries, particularly the UK which I’m referencing. When I’ve driven in Germany, the only real issues I’ve had have been around rush hour, the rest of the time people aren’t even in the way to begin with (or they’re driving faster than me).
Frankly, I think driving licenses should be subject to mandatory re-training every 5 years. Not like a pass/fail test, but a compulsory course. That way, changes in roadcraft can be taught, and bad habits can hopefully be addressed before they fester.
rufus@discuss.tchncs.de 10 months ago
§ 3 Absatz 2 says you’re not allowed to drive slower than necessary if it impedes traffic.
§ 4 Absatz 1 says you’re not allowed to thwart (is that the right word?) someone unless you’re forced to do. (And you got to keep your distance.)
It’s an immediate 20€ fine, or 30€ if it caused an accident. (Bußgeldkatalog: “Tatbestand: Sie bremsten als Vorausfahrender ab, ohne dass dafür ein Grund bestand. Es kam zu einer Gefährdung des nachfolgenden Verkehrsteilnehmers.” – Fine: 20€, caused an accident: 30€)
Next step after the 20€ fine is they treat it as coercion and that’s not a fun accusation any more.
You’re right. The police rarely is around if you need them. And things like that happen every day. And nothing will happen in 99 point something percent this happens. But they will prosecute people for that, on the occasion that they become aware and have the time to deal with that.
a) You needlessly get less distance between the both of you. Now there isn’t enough space to respond to other things without crashing into you or doing dangerous maneuvers. b) The other driver could drive shittily because of a reason. Maybe they can’t drive. Or are 95 years old. Or are playing with their phone or paying attention to their GPS and that’s why they’re hogging the middle lane and doing stupid stuff. They’ll crash into you because they won’t see you in front of them. Or they look up from their phone, catch sight in the last second, get startled and start swerving around. This has happened and happens from time to time. c) You do this to a truck/lorry and the emergency brake system will get activated. Spilling the driver’s coffe and causing yet more trouble for the traffic behind them.
That’s also what bothers me. You either are in a hurry and want to drive fast. Or you have all the time to lecture people and do loops. I’m always fascinated by people who combine both. They want everyone out of their way, but then suddenly muster up lots of time to do things like that. I usually honk at people or flash the lights and then I put ‘the pedal to the metal’ and get on with my day.
If it helps, there may be some merit to this. But that hasn’t been what I’ve experienced. People will just get annoyed and either defiance kicks in or their belief that they’re right and everyone else is wrong solidifies even more.
Yeah. I believe so, too. I’ve yet to visit the UK. Somehow I never got around to do so. Germany regularly gets praised for it’s standard of driving. And our perspective and what kind of things we have to deal with is probably very different. However, I think the percentage of idiots in the population should be around the same. And I’m basing a good amount of what I’m saying on rush hour, because sadly that’s often when you have to commute or get somewhere. I usually take the train, so I’m dealing with other issues on a daily basis.
That would upset many people and be very unpopular in politics. But I think it’d be a good idea. And everyone would benefit from a safer environment. They could also force people to do a first-aid course every now and then. I’ve witnessed 2 bicycle accidents this year and for some people the last time they heard about first-aid was 30 years ago when they got their drivers license. Just my oppinion.
TWeaK@lemm.ee 9 months ago
Traffic isn’t being impeded, you’re slowing down in an empty lane.
Safe distance is being maintained, you’re slowing down in an empty lane.
Also, as I said before, you could have plenty of other reasons to pull into the inside lane and slow down after overtaking someone, letting them pass you in the middle lane. So one loop has plausible deniability, though 2 or more would be pretty obvious. Still, I feel like most police officers would just give you a talking to, rather than a ticket, they’d laugh and tell you not to do it again - if they’re even around to stop you.
I’m not sure you fully understand the manuever:
It’s not brake checking them, you’re in a completely separate lane. They have no reason or need to slow down. If I saw them on their phone when I first overtook them I probably would think of them as hazardous and just leave them alone, continuing on my way.
Generally I don’t get angry on the road. Like you, most of the time I’ll just flash my lights (I’d only honk if they did something particularly dangerous), wait until they’re out of the way then drive on. The loop thing is more of a bit of fun, and like I say in my experience most drivers realise it and pull in. I think in Germany there are far fewer drivers sat in the middle lane, and the ones that do are maybe more stubborn. In the UK so many people do it that a good portion of them are reasonable, just not properly trained/they have bad habits.
I actually learned the trick when I was kayaking at uni, it was one of their games for long journies. Another was stopping at a red light and shouting “ALL CHANGE” then everyone would get out of the car and change seats. It’s a bit naughty, there is some small risk, but generally it’s just a bit of fun. You can only listen to Venga Boys so much before you get bored.
Most likely.
The thing with rush hour is you probably wouldn’t get the opportunity to loop around them. You need a good deal of clear space on the road to be able to complete the move, with one car sat in the middle lane and nothing in the inside lane for a long way. It basically has to be just the 2 of you for a few hundred metres.
First aid would be good also. I’ve had some first aid training, and very soon after had the opportunity to use it - an old guy at a pub missed the bench and fell and hit his head. Everyone else was panicked, I got up, told someone to call an ambulance and managed to wake him by shouting his name, then his eyes sprung open. Sure, it’s nothing like fitting a tourniquet, but it was a funky experience, then when the paramedics came I faded into the background and got back to my pint. In general, more training is a good thing. In fact, coming back to driving, I’m aware that I’ve developed some bad habits (skills degrade with age) and this would be mitigated by ongoing training.
No need to apologise though, I can tell you’re being very well reasoned. Also, downvotes don’t really have any consequence (not like on reddit, where your comment would get hidden and you might get rate limited). It’s been good chatting with you.
rufus@discuss.tchncs.de 9 months ago
Aaaaaah, No, I didn’t understand. I don’t know what I was thinking of, but now I get it… That should be perfectly alright. If you loop all the way around them on a 3-lane road, that’s just silly. But I don’t see any regulation prohibiting it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen this happen in the wild, just on YouTube. But there aren’t many 3-lane roads where I live, anyways.
The rules I mentioned all specifically state that someone needs to follow or be impeded (even endangered). In that case you have your own lane and you’re relatively free to do whatever you like. It is mildly wrong, because you’re causing lots of overtakings both from you and the other person and they all have a tiny, but greater than 0 risk associated with them. And you do this because you’re guided by emotions. And you’re not supposed to do that while operating heavy machinery like a car.
But I’d say it’s probably on the same level of ‘dangerous’ like enjoying music while driving or talking to your passenger.
Oh, you got me confused a bit there. Seems we have different terms for the lanes. In my perspective the inside lane would be the one in the middle of the road, close to the central barrier. And the outside one at the verge where the emergency lane and the embarkment/vegetation is.
You’re right. We’ve already established that we probably have very different perspectives on driving. Most likely just due to population density. I’m like medium-old now. I drive for like 15-20 years at this point. And I live in the “Ruhrgebiet” which is a somewhat densely populated, metropolitan area. When I was about 20, I had a good amount of fun driving cars. We did lot’s of stupid stuff, including the “all change” game. Or do childish things and blast music and get pulled over by police at 2am. I think it’s only natural that you calm down a bit with age. But also things have changed in the last 15 years. There are lots more cars on the road. I don’t know exact numbers but I think rush hour starts 30-45mins earlier now and also lasts longer. And there’s a good amount of traffic during the day. We have some of the most well used motorways of the country here. And they’re mostly 2 lanes per direction, because there is city on either side and there was never any space to build a wider road. I mean we’ve always had traffic jams at rush hour. And a good amount of them, too. But I think driving has become more annoying within my lifetime.
However, I don’t think people have changed substantially. They still do the same mistakes. Can’t switch lanes properly, don’t do it the right way if there’s a lane blocked by construction (you’re supposed to wait for the last moment and then merge alternating, one car from each lane in turn). Or they’re breaking or overly switching lanes in a traffic jam and cause yet more people to slow down and make it worse. I don’t think this will ever change (unless artificial intelligence takes over). Seems to me like driving isn’t that easy and some people just aren’t up to it, intellectually. It’s certainly a skewed perspective, but it always feels like you meet all of them (stupid people) on the road.
Enough ranting from me. I also get them on the train. There’s often the situation that the train arrives at 7am at a main station, 400 people are trying to disembark but there is this one granny standing right in front of the door and trying to make her way in right now, against the flood of people. And they also like to use the moving staircase and then take one step off of it, stop and look around if they’re on the correct platform. All whilst the escalator pushes some more 50 commuters into their back. It doesn’t happen every day, but often enough so that it annoys me. Guess it’s better if you live in Japan. But people certainly have their own, individual struggles and annoyances of everyday lives in any society.
I think I’ve somehow accepted that. I’m not a proper stoic. And I won’t push over that old lady in front of the train door. But I might bump into you (mildly) if you’re younger and should know better. I’m certainly not taking care to get around and allow you to do it. In my personal opinion people should sometimes be able to feel when they’re in the wrong. All within reason, of course. I think - generally - the same thing applies to road traffic.
TWeaK@lemm.ee 9 months ago
Hah, yeah, I had to be little bit ambiguous, I couldn’t just say “left, middle, right” for a 3-lane road, as that would mean different things for people from the US or Germany, and I’d probably just confuse myself trying to swap them!
Driving styles have definitely changed over the years. In the UK, they’ve introduced “Smart Motorways”, which basically have gantries every so often with speed limit signs over them. They can very the speed limit on the fly or handle lane closures or whatever. Some also have speed cameras, but not all that many in the end and you can easily spot them - even so, people have generally slowed down to the 70mph (~120kph) speed limit now. In some respects this is good, but you also end up with cars overtaking each other very slowly with very little difference in speed, clogging up the road.
What I find really interesting is how driving styles change even across different regions of the country. You can see people behaving differently in the north and south of the UK, or even in specific areas - down near Brighton there are a lot of 2-lane A-roads where people all queue up in the outside lane waiting on 2 lorries overtaking each other, leaving the inside lane completely empty. In Europe, like I mentioned, there’s this weird change when you cross the border from Germany into the Netherlands - not just the difference in speed (Netherlands seem to be very sharp on speeding, meanwhile Autobhan is generally unrestricted) but also drivers in the Netherlands pull in almost immediately, so quickly you might feel the need to slow down because they’re so close in front of you.