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Comment on Japan automakers play catch-up in EV race

Hypx@kbin.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

Talking someone into a BEV is just laziness, and more greenwashing than a serious solution. It's not even easier, as you now need a garage and tolerance for long recharge times and less range. The actual easiest idea would be to create a drop-in replacement for ICE cars. E-fuels are an option. Hydrogen cars are similarly straightforward as a possibility.

BEVs are at best a transitional idea. All it seems to be good for is to change people's minds on green transportation. But it won't get us to the promise land. There are too many problems, and the resource requirements mean they create huge new problems of their own. We need to push for whatever that can best get rid of fossil fuel cars, which would be something else.

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PlatinumSf@pawb.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I disagree with you there. Most of the common affordable BEVs are perfectly capable of providing required transport as a drop in replacement for most people I’ve met. Charging infrastructure is also extremely cheap and easy to implement. Implenting mass scale ‘e-fuel’ is a pipe dream requiring significantly more infrastructure and funding than available and reasonable. A good place to look is at F-1 or Porsche who are both building renewable hydrocarbon fuel networks. Both demonstrate that the economics and environmental costs just do not work out unless there’s an engineering reason to do it (like producing high density light fuel). Meanwhile if we migrate a camery driver from their 4 banger to a mid-range BEV they’ll be hard pressed to notice except in the 0.1% of long range travel which could be handled by flight, rental, or mass ground transport depending on travel needs. Additionally their fuel costs will drop significantly as they charge at home with low cost outlet electricity (which can then be a centralized focus for a governmental body to regulate and transition to environmentally friendly renewables like wind/solar), eliminating the need for expensive and energy intensive fuel delivery supply chains, stations, and frameworks. BEVs are just better than ICE in most regards when you look at the overall picture and don’t discount the unseen costs.

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- Hypx@kbin.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  You're not seeing the whole picture then. Having only BEVs will mean millions of people being totally screwed over on transportation, and vast new mining operations everywhere. It's pretty much an environmental nightmare in its own right. A lot of attacks on the alternatives are just strawman arguments. As if BEVs will be exclusively microcompacts and all ICE vehicles will be giant SUVs and with zero mass transit options.
  
  In reality, BEVs are part of the problem. And one that can't be truly solved.
  
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bobgusford@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Hydrogen is a dead end, because it is nowhere near green to produce it in large quantities, and the technology is still not ready, nor is the supply network. It’s just an idea pushed by fossil fuel companies hoping to transition to selling hydrogen.

E-fuels are not zero emission, but the basic premise is that somewhere else along the chain it reduced GhG emissions into the atmosphere - like capturing methane from cow burps, or biogas from garbage dumps.

These fuels will have uses - hydrogen in rockets and e-fuels for aircraft - but for almost all land vehicles, BEVs or going electric, is the most readily available and working strategy.

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- Hypx@kbin.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  That's just BEV propaganda. They're trying to sell you unsustainable BEVs instead of a fuel that can be made from water.
  
  Not to mention it will leave millions of people stranded without any means of transportation. As it turns out, the gas station is pretty much unreplaceable. BEVs are really just toys for the rich. The whole thing is pretty much a variable on climate change denial or at least an adjacency idea.
  
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  - bobgusford@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    It’s more like BEV reality. They (car manufacturers, oil & gas, etc) have been trying to get hydrogen to work for ages now, but BEVs have made much more progress instead.
    
    Hydrogen fuel-cells: Everyone (consumers, manufacturers, etc) has been waiting for this to come into mass-production and used in cars. Hasn’t happened yet.
    
    Hydrogen combustion engines: Good idea, but still not as feasible at sounds. I’ve heard of problems with efficiency of the engines, dangers in storing and transporting the fuel, leakage, etc. It still hasn’t happened to scale.
    
    Hydrogen production is still very energy and CO2 intensive. The small amount of hydrogen that can be produced using green methods or with carbon-capture, should be used towards planes and rockets.
    
    BEVs won’t be a cure all for every machine on earth, and not immediately either. But over time, it should become the most cost-appropriate solution if you factor in the cost of emitting CO2 and other GhGs.
    
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    Hypx@kbin.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    It's the same story as with diesel or ethanol cars. There are always some short-term "easy" solutions that don't scale or aren't really that green. BEVs is just the next stage of that. You can obsess all you want with a transitional technology, but that doesn't stop the march of progress.
    
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