Comment on The Not-So-Great Replacement Theory
magnusrufus@lemmy.world 1 year agoHeritage does change. It has to. Think about it for even a minute and that becomes obvious. People and tribes and families change over time. If someone from a family of one heritage marries someone from another heritage then the heritage for that lineage going forward has changed. As elements of one heritage become more remote for a family they fade from importance and memory and eventually fade out. Most importantly for you, if heritage is immutable and can’t change then your whole deal about getting rid of the bad parts is impossible. Its a direct contradiction.
“If you want to criticize something direct your criticism to the substance of my definitions” That’s what I’m doing. In your definition you added a nonsense bit about heritage never changing. That is not in the real definition and it is not in anyone else’s working definition. It’s like defining weather as only being when its raining and insisting that weather never changes and is always bad. Your definition is fundamentally flawed.
If science as a culture doesn’t function at a societal level then it doesn’t apply beyond a useless pedantic point.
Even if you despise yourself and your own heritage despising others for their other heritages still sounds pretty xenophobic. Sounds a lot like the guys that say “I’m not racist, I hate everyone”.
No shit I want to get rid of the bad aspects and get rid of the good ones. And because culture and heritage are not what you say they are that is possible to do.
“One last simple question: Do you agree with the idea of removing children from houses where the mafia is seen as an honourable way of living?” depends, are you going to sexually abuse them and murder them? Not like it would do any good since their heritage can’t change.
Your protip was bullshit. Your definition was garbo. Heritage and culture are not frozen in time and they both have good and bad elements and the good ones do benefit society.
FabioTheNewOrder@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Many historical groups arranging re-enactment events and commemorations, conservative political parties and religious groups would like to dissent with you about your stance. But I’m sure their opinions don’t count in your books
That’s absolutely not the case. Try entering a social group with a strong connection to its heritage (such as for example a southern Italian family) and you’ll see that you are faced with two options: assimilate or be cast out from the group
No, you are not. You’re just repeating that my definitions are wrong without any supporting evidence. I’ve given you countless examples of heritage being unchanging and set in time while you refuse this without providing any reason or example. I refute your idea of heritage being a mutating concept and will continue to do so until you won’t provide me with a compelling example of an heritage which was changed from within and survived unscathed
That’s exactly why I am for the destitution of heritages in favour of cultures
I already showed you that heritage cannot be changed from within, to make it change you have to act from outside with specific legislations. Also I’d suggest you to review what you wrote here because I think you made some mistakes in exposing what you want to do
No, I’m not. I’d have them supported by the state through specialized workers and institutions until a certified foster family can be found and then I’d have them moved in with this family to cancel and overwrite their heritage by giving them a modern culture. Oh no, I ear you say, you want to strip poor children of their heritage. Yes, I do. Their heritage is the cause of a unmeasurable amount of problems both locally and internationally, erasing it would only improve the lives of everyone involve.
Just to ease this discussion, can you please give your definition of heritage? Only to understand what you mean when talking about this subject because you are criticizing me for my definition without providing any supporting evidence to your rebuttals. Maybe if you’d explain what you mean with heritage I could show you where you are wrong at the heart of the issue
magnusrufus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Arranging re-enactments and commemorations doesn’t mean that they have the stance that opposes the reality that heritage changes. Conservative political parties and religious groups would actually likely agree that heritage can change which is why they need to put such effort into preserving heritage. Because if heritage can’t change then there is nothing to preserve. It will always be there. If heritage can’t change then who is their opposition? Not that their opposition’s opinions count in your book.
“That’s absolutely not the case. Try entering a social group with a strong connection to its heritage (such as for example a southern Italian family) and you’ll see that you are faced with two options: assimilate or be cast out from the group”
You mean that’s absolutely not always the case. You had to add the condition of entering a social group with a strong connection to its heritage in order to narrow the discussion to the scenario that fits your broken definition. You’ve made a point against yourself here because all we have to do is consider the alternative that has to exist based on your wording. You specified a social group with a strong connection to its heritage which means there are groups without strong connections. So try entering that group. Is heritage immutable there? If not then low and behold heritage can change. Also even your example doesn’t make sense because regardless of the reaction of the extended family the married couple’s family unit’s heritage has changed and if they have children those children will have a blend of the two heritages. Unless you are going to make the looney claim that no one ever marries into a social group with a strong connection to its heritage unless they also share that same heritage. I wouldn’t put that past you.
Yes, yes I am criticizing the substance of your definition. I am repeatedly telling you that your definition is wrong because you are repeatedly insisting that it is right. You don’t seem to get that your claim that heritage can’t change means it has to never change in every single case. One counter example of heritage changing means that you are wrong. And I’ve repeatedly shown that your examples are not universal. I’ve pointed out that you keep using conditionals to limit the scope of considering heritage and that as soon as we drop those conditionals or even consider the implications of needing to include them in the first place we see that heritage isn’t even close to being universally unchangeable.
" a compelling example of an heritage which was changed from within and survived unscathed" See this is an example of what I’m talking about. Provide an example of something changing but oh yeah let me add the condition that in the example the thing is unscathed. That the heritage can be scathed means it can change. That you keep trying to narrow the scope makes me really suspicious about your honesty. This is more insisting that weather is only when its raining.
“That’s exactly why I am for the destitution of heritages in favour of cultures” not sure what you mean by that. Not a phrase or idiom that I’m familiar with. I suspect you mean that you are in favor of replacing heritages in favor of cultures. That’s not a thing that can be done. Just by existing you have a heritage. If you disregard all elements of that heritage, well that would mean that heritage can change which is a contradiction yet again, and replace it with “culture” then that becomes heritage.
“Oh no, I ear you say, you want to strip poor children of their heritage. Yes, I do. Their heritage is the cause of a unmeasurable amount of problems both locally and internationally, erasing it would only improve the lives of everyone involve.” And like I was pointing out that’s the exact same thing that the people running those boarding schools were saying.
I might eventually give you my definition after being as round about as you were. Guess we’ll see.
Heritage can change. You’ve proven it yourself. Your protip was bullshit. Your definition is garbo.
FabioTheNewOrder@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Maybe not but it does prove that people who believe in heritage will go out of their way to keep it alive and unchanged as much as possible.
Progressives, who usually try to eliminate heritage by moving society to a new set of standards via legislation
It is but for a smaller proportion of the group. We see this among “white people” where a huge chunk of this crowd is moving towards culture while leaving it’s heritage behind. This has caused a huge stir in its most conservative representatives who are now fighting against this trend with all their forces (the so called war on the “woke agenda”). If heritage is naturally inclined to evolve can you explain all the efforts put up by conservative voices to avoid this natural process?
Yet you fail to provide me with this example which would destroy my view while also taking a W because you showed me that the specific examples I used are not universal
That’s not how heritage works: if these two people are casted out of their group they have ended their relationship with their heritages. They will have created a new heritage, related to just their family, the old ones will remain the unchanged in their original groups. So there’s no evolution in the original heritage as you can see
No you are not
That’s what you are doing by simply discarding my examples of application in real life of my definition. That’s not a substantial criticism but a straw man attack
It’s called a paradox and it’s my way to show you that your reasoning has no logic ground
If I disregard aspects of my heritage it doesn’t mean that my heritage has changed, it means that I, personally and alone, have moved away from my heritage to a more logical place. My heritage will remain unchanged and brought forward by those who accept it’s tenants
Nope, they were forcing themselves on defenceless children while taking advantage of their positions of power. May I add that these revolting facts were carried out by participants to another heritage, the catholic one in this specific case?
Oh thank you for you kind consideration my master
Repeating the same phrase over and over again won’t turn it’s contents into reality, despite all that Goebbels said about that
magnusrufus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
“Maybe not but it does prove that people who believe in heritage will go out of their way to keep it alive and unchanged as much as possible.” Oopsie you just admitted that heritage changes.
“Progressives, who usually try to eliminate heritage by moving society to a new set of standards via legislation” Progressives don’t try to eliminate heritage.
Its not that heritage is inclined to evolve. Heritage must evolve by the very nature of what it is. Heritage includes the changes that occur in societies and families over time. And time continues forward. Heritage is not static unless you make up a completely wrong definition of heritage. Heritage is additive in that way. When ol’ Leo painted the Mona Lisa and it became part of italian heritage it didn’t destroy the otherwise identical heritage that previously existed just minus that painting. Things are added to heritage and things fade from heritage.
Conservatives put effort into avoiding this because they are scared of change, duh. And they wouldn’t have to put effort into it if heritage couldn’t change like you claim. That they put effort into it should be a huge hint to you how flawed your made up definition and terrible understanding of heritage is.
Also that seems like a weirdly short take on the relationship between conservatives and change.
“That’s not how heritage works: if these two people are casted out of their group they have ended their relationship with their heritages. They will have created a new heritage, related to just their family, but the old ones will remain unchanged in their original groups. So there’s no evolution in the original heritage as you can see”
That is how heritage works. People from different heritages merry. The intermarriage between these groups blends the heritages of future generations. If they are not cast out of their group then their relationship hasn’t ended. You are yet again ignoring all other cases that show your definition is wrong with that if. That is dishonest of you. That you had to use a conditional if to achieve the state of no evolution shows that there are alternate cases where there is evolution. So heritage can change.
“No you are not” Yes, I really am.
“That’s what you are doing by simply discarding my examples of application in real life of my definition. That’s not a substantial criticism but a straw man attack” No I’m pointing out that you are narrowing your examples and trying to ignore that your examples are a subset of all cases and if you consider all cases then your definition falls apart. The weather never changes for example last saturday it was raining.
“It’s called a paradox and it’s my way to show you that your reasoning has no logic ground” yes that is a paradox that I am highlighting for you to show the contradiction in your reasoning. My reasoning doesn’t need conditions and constraints to work. Prove that weather changes but don’t mention any days when its not raining.
“If I disregard aspects of my heritage it doesn’t mean that my heritage has changed, it means that I, personally and alone, have moved away from my heritage to a more logical place. My heritage will remain unchanged and brought forward by those being part of my group, tribe or family who accept it’s tenants” It might be that you are not capable of considering this on large enough scales of time and population. That individual’s severance of their heritage will impact the collective heritage of their family, and to a small degree their society, going forward. If enough people make that change collectively the heritage of that society will change. But its also not an all or nothing case. If the individual, or the masses, only reject one aspect of their heritage and keep the rest otherwise intact then that heritage is passed on slightly changed.
“Nope, beside trying to impose their heritage they were forcing themselves on defenceless children while taking advantage of their positions of power.” It doesn’t matter what they did beside, that doesn’t change that they were saying the same things you are saying. You were doing shitty thing A. They were doing shitty thing A and shitty thing B. You both did shitty thing A.
" May I add that these revolting facts were carried out by participants to another heritage, the catholic one in this specific case?" You may but that doesn’t carry any real meaning. May I add that my cat is orange?
“Repeating the same phrase over and over again won’t turn it’s contents into reality, despite all that Goebbels said about that” Take that to heart then. You’re definition is made up. No one else defines heritage the way you do. No one else uses it the way you do. You keep insisting that your definition is correct in defiance of how it obviously works in reality and against the understanding of heritage for the rest of humanity. You don’t want to be like goebbels do you?
Heritage can change. Your protip was bullshit. Your definition is garbo. You are too proud to back down from the dumb things you said.