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Comment on Hi, I want to start programming but dunno where to start and which language to learn

This is very over-exaggerated. A lot of people started with C or C++ as their first language.

That took place over two decades ago. There were no better alternatives back then. Times have changed.

Both of which are significantly harder than learning Rust.

This is simply not true. It’s far simpler and less frustrating to work on either C or C++ for the simple reason that you can shoot yourself in the foot anywhere you’d like. In Rust, newbies have to alternative to endure the compiler enforcing its safety constraints anywhere they’d like. Rust is also a far more complex and extensive language that enforces memory safety rules that can and very often are very frustrating to handle by those who don’t have a firm grasp on them.

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MajorHavoc@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Agreed. I lound learning C decades ago was a pain in the ass. And I found learning Rust last year was a huge pain in the ass.

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mmstick@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
You’re not making the strong case that you think you are. Quite the opposite. The ease of “shooting yourself in the foot” is precisely what makes it so difficult to learn. Segmentation faults and random memory corruption make it incredibly hard to get started with programming. So much so that many people give up when it gets too difficult to diagnose them. The compiler typically providing no help at all for diagnosing where the memory handling flaws are.

Rust’s constraints are very clear and concise in comparison, with a helpful compiler that will teach you how to handle memory correctly. I believe you’re mistakenly assuming it’s more difficult to work with than it really is. For example, imagine telling someone that pattern matching in Rust is more difficult than constructing unions and casting pointers in C. I’ve worked with a number of people over the years that had little experience in programming outside Rust.

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- lysdexic@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  
  You’re not making the strong case that you think you are. Quite the opposite. The ease of “shooting yourself in the foot” is precisely what makes it so difficult to learn. Segmentation faults and random memory corruption make it incredibly hard to get started with programming.
  
  That’s not the case, though. Some C and C++ compilers are already resilient and flexible enough to not get C and C++ to blow up in your face when you’re doing unmentionable things to memory access. Some memory safety issues are only noticeable when running profilers and memory safety tools.
  
  Keep in mind you are talking about someone taking their first steps in writing software. They are struggling to get stuff to work, and throwing curve balls at them is not going to help them get on their feet.
  
  Also, I did not advocated for C or C++ as better options. My point is that Rust is an awful suggestion as a first language, which even the Rust community states.
  
  Rust’s constraints are very clear and concise in comparison (…)
  
  Irrelevant. The point is that Rust enforces constraints that other programming languages don’t. If anyone is taking their first steps, not having to deal with them leads to a far more productive and enjoyable experience.
  
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  - mmstick@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    The Rust community is a very diverse group of people with many different opinions. It is not a universal truth that the Rust community believes Rust to be an awful first language. I’ve known plenty of people who started their careers with Rust. I started my career with Rust, too. The complaint with difficulty adapting to the borrow checker has been irrelevant since the 2021 edition of Rust. The borrow checker has become smarter about rearranging borrows and automatically tagging lifetimes in most cases. The remaining constraints that the compiler enforces are also hard requirements to learn when developing software in any other language. The same practices equally apply to all software. For example, mutating an array while iterating it in Python will lead to unexpected behavior. Python’s lack of a proper type system causes a lot of software to explode at runtime when you think inputs are always X but suddenly in one case it happens to be Y.
    
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    lysdexic@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    
    The Rust community is a very diverse group of people with many different opinions. It is not a universal truth that the Rust community believes Rust to be an awful first language.
    
    You don’t need to take my word for it. Google the topic and go through all the discussions. Even the ones in Rust’s own forum get mixed responses, and that community is by its very nature very partial towards Rust.
    
    Also, framing the discussion around newbies learning Rust as a first language is a strawman. The question is not whether if someone without any prior experience in programming can or cannot make and effort and write code in Rust. The question is which language to learn.
    
    There are many programming languages to pick and choose from, and some are renowned to be very beginner friendly. Rust is not one of them.
    
    If you want to make a case for Rust, it’s up to you to prove that Rust is a better language to take first steps than any other programming language around. In my personal opinion, it is simply not possible to claim that Rust is better for this particular usecase than quite a sizable set of programming languages, including but not limited to Python. If you want to claim Rust is better suited then you need to make a case for it, and that is a challenging thing to pull off.
    
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