Comment on The Not-So-Great Replacement Theory
FabioTheNewOrder@lemmy.world 1 year agoIf, of those three questions, one could be called THE question it would be the primary first question on which the others are based. When I dismissed the question on which the others relied for context for being both disgusting and dumb the others get dismissed as well.
What do you think the “correctly” stated among parentheses stand for? Maybe that I do agree with your stance? And that the following questions were a hypothetical I threw yourself to make you understand that there is no objective ground onto which one can establish where a state can and cannot intervene in the private life of its citizens and that these boundaries are drew according to the current moral status of society at large. Which may vary wildly between different societies. But you seem to have major issues in understanding hypothetical (and also practical) questions so I don’t see how we can continue this conversation.
You ask me to provide you with my personal definition of heritage and culture after a discussion spanning multiple messages over where I extensively defined heritage and culture. Were you reading the contents of my messages? At this point I think not, or at least I think you have a serious issue with basic reading and understanding skills.
Neither culture nor heritage force you to do that. The made up definition that you didn’t write down includes that but not the real one
You even recognize I gave you my definitions in our past exchanges a few lines later while also discarding the well known and established social pressure or peer pressure influence like it’s nothing because you decided so. Try living a lifestyle challenging the social status quo in your area and then come back telling us how good and nicely you were treated by the people living around you. (This is an hypothetical request, please don’t go around challenging other people belief systems)
Some cultures will apply much more pressure to adhere to a heritage strictly. Some won’t.
Please provide me an example of a culture which does not apply peer pressure to enforce its heritage on the people living inside it.
Nothing in the definition that you copied addresses how heritage only builds walls or has never been used for the betterment of society so it doesn’t encapsulate anything.
If two peoples with different heritages meet what do you think happen? Will their heritages be used as a basis for cooperation or do you think they will be used to keep a well defined differentiation between the two people? And if the second hypothesis is the correct one (as it is, if not please show me an example of heritage inclusive of different customs from its own) how can you not see heritage building walls around a population?
I stated multiple times that heritages can have positive aspects among themselves but that, in total, they are more an hindrance than a positive for the improvement of the human condition. I want to erase the bad aspects and keep the good ones. If this makes me a xenophobe (it doesn’t, but you don’t seem to mind) then I am guilty as charged.
magnusrufus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
No, you talked extensively about what you think culture or heritage does but you never clearly say what it is. Rambling references over many posts where you constantly change terminology and use exaggeration to wildly different degrees are not a definition. It’s like saying cigarettes cause cancer and thinking you defined cigarettes. Provide a clear concise definition of heritage in your own words, because you haven’t done that.
“You even recognize I gave you my definitions in our past” no I didn’t because the definition that you made up is exclusively in your head which is why I’m trying to get you to say it explicitly and clearly. and I suspect that you are realizing that you don’t have a coherent notion of what culture or heritage are which is why your terminology has changed so much and why everything is vague allusions about how it’s so bad without ever saying what it is.
“Please provide me an example of a culture which does not apply peer pressure to enforce its heritage on the people living inside it.”. Not relevant. I didn’t say that society doesn’t apply pressure I said it’s a matter of the degree of the pressure. Please provide an example of a culture without heritage… after you actually define what you think heritage is
"If two peoples with different heritages meet what do you think happen? " When I met my Sihk neighbor we had a short but pleasant chat. I wave to him when I see him on walks in the neighborhood.
“Even if one despises aspects of his own heritage? Who is fiddling with definitions now?” You are because you added that question to change the target being despised.
“I stated multiple times that heritages can have positive aspects” cool then your protip was bullshit and you are backsliding on your stance exactly like I said.
FabioTheNewOrder@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Ok, let’s give you the definitions you so much need.
Heritage: a set of social constructs and ideals created through a subjective belief system by past generations and implemented in the social fabric of a people despite the lack of evidence for its usefulness in providing better living conditions to the people being subjected to these customs. Those ideals are untouchable and cannot be changed through time to preserve the society which has created them (synonyms can be tradition, custom, superstition)
Culture: a set of knowledges and skills created through a rigorous study of a determined subject passed through generations via a learning system which does not require a blind acceptance of its foundamentals and whose practical use can be used to create new customs or products aimed at improving the living conditions of all people. These knowledges and skills are updated through the passing of time to accomodate new findings and results derived from the study of actual results obtained from the application of said knowledges and skills (synonyms can be science, philosophy, arts)
Hope you are happy now
Ok so if a society has a light pressure applied to enforce an abhorrent custom such as infant genital mutilation you would be ok with that?
Any modern scientific field
I stated from the very beginning that I despise many aspects of the Italian heritage I am a part of but, even if I didn’t do so, should I state that now does that make me a xenophobe towards my own people? Can one be xenophobe when refusing it’s own traditions? According to the word itself no (xeno = other, different - phobia = fear, refusal) but I’m sure you will find a way to twist yourself out from this conundrum
I’m glad you have a good relationship with your neighbour but this was not my question (as per usual. Please reply to the questions following the one you replied to with a personal experience unrelated to the theme of the discussion
Even if one despises aspects of his own heritage? Who is fiddling with definitions now? I stated multiple times that heritages can have positive aspects among themselves but that, in total, they are more an hindrance than a positive for the improvement of the human condition. I want to erase the bad aspects and keep the good ones. If this makes me a xenophobe (it doesn’t, but you don’t seem to mind) then I am guilty as charged.
Again with your selective quote, please read the whole of my replies and quote them in their entirety.
magnusrufus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
“Hope you are happy now” Yes you finally did the simple thing that I told you to do to make your looney stance clear. Why was that so hard for you? Why did you pick a dictionary definition that didn’t match what you eventually finally wrote out?
Heritage: a set of social constructs and ideals created through a subjective belief system by past generations and implemented in the social fabric of a people despite the lack of evidence for its usefulness in providing better living conditions to the people being subjected to these customs. Those ideals are untouchable and cannot be changed through time to preserve the society which has created them (synonyms can be tradition, custom, superstition)
I’ve highlighted the parts that you’ve made up to cater to your pet issue. “created through a subjective belief system” - most likely sure but not an absolute. “despite the lack of evidence for its usefulness in providing better living conditions to the people being subjected to these customs” - this is where you start to veer wildly into your twisted interpretation. The constructs and ideals are implemented not despite the lack of evidence because that criteria was never considered when those things became part of society so that framing is wrong. This also seems to imply that you think there are zero social constructs and ideals in the fabric of society that are providing better living conditions. That or you are crafting your definition of heritage to exclude just those ones in order to achieve your goal of labeling heritage as bad. If you are going to separate the constructs and ideals that you like from the ones that you don’t like and label the ones that you don’t like as heritage then what is the name for the set that you do like? Pretty much everyone else realizes that heritage is a mixed bag of good/bad/completely neutral social constructs and ideals. “Those ideals are untouchable and cannot be changed through time to preserve the society which has created them” - Here you completely depart from reality. Culture and heritage do change over time. That is just a fact. That you are trying (incredibly awkwardly) to reject elements of your own culture and heritage ought to be pretty obvious evidence of that.
“Ok so if a society has a light pressure applied to enforce an abhorrent custom such as infant genital mutilation you would be ok with that?” Nope why would I be? I should start doing what you are doing and asking questions that imply a stance that you don’t actually hold. Why would you enjoy participating in infant genital mutilation?
The different type of culture that exists in scientific fields is insufficient to operate as an entire societal culture. Even if we were to take your answer seriously as soon as you apply whatever science culture you think is best it will be saddled with heritage because heritage inherently happens by existing and having subsequent generations.
"I’m glad you have a good relationship with your neighbor but this was not my question " Well then stop asking a stream of questions with the real question randomly hidden in them. Also maybe think about what I said. You wanted to know what happens when people of different heritage meet so I gave an example of people of different heritage meeting and getting along. It obviously doesn’t always play out that way. “Will their heritages be used as a basis for cooperation or do you think they will be used to keep a well defined differentiation between the two people?” Oh shit looks like that was answered already. We didn’t engage in your weird belief that people instantly start working on a well defined differentiation. “And if the second hypothesis is the correct one (as it is, if not please show me an example of heritage inclusive of different customs from its own) how can you not see heritage building walls around a population?” Big fucking if there about the second hypothesis being correct (as it is not. and i gave to examples, my heritage and my neighbor’s) so that’s how I can not see heritage building walls around a population. Because not building walls happens all the damn time. That doesn’t mean that some people don’t build walls based on that but you assertion that its the only outcome is nonsense. Oh shit that question was already answered too if you put any thought into it.
“Even if one despises aspects of his own heritage?” Do you know what xenophobia means? Despising people because of their heritage or for simply having heritage (something that is impossible not to have unless we use something like your made up definition that is exclusively used by you) regardless of what that heritage actually entails is xenophobic. Your hatred of heritage isn’t exclusive to just your self or just your country. Your characterization of foreigners not being capable of integrating into a new society fits pretty well with xenophobic ideas too. Hating yourself doesn’t magically make the hatred for others go away.
“Even if one despises aspects of his own heritage? Who is fiddling with definitions now? I stated multiple times that heritages can have positive aspects among themselves but that, in total, they are more an hindrance than a positive for the improvement of the human condition. I want to erase the bad aspects and keep the good ones. If this makes me a xenophobe (it doesn’t, but you don’t seem to mind) then I am guilty as charged.” cool then your protip was bullshit and you are backsliding on your stance exactly like I said.
Weird, including the entire quote didn’t change anything. Protip still bullshit. You still backsliding.
FabioTheNewOrder@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Culture change, heritage doesn’t. Heritage is the story of a people, of a tribe, of a family. You can’t change history on a whim.
Also, I gave you my personal definitions after providing you the official ones. If you want to criticize something direct your criticism to the substance of my definitions, don’t discard them as the not correct ones. We know they’re not the official definitions, I already gave you that and you asked for my own, now you gotta work with them.
I wouldn’t, that’s why I want to stop it
Never in my discussion I stated that it just build wall, I am stating that it it is used as an excuse to build walls, which is way different
Yes I do, I gave you the definition in my previous reply
That’s not what xenophobia means
Do you agree with this desire or not?
One last simple question: Do you agree with the idea of removing children from houses where the mafia is seen as an honourable way of living?