@skamu@mastodon.uno @technology@lemmy.world @Feyd@programming.dev
Post scriptum (I'm unable to edit my replies using Sharkey): regarding the dark pattern within the modal from the opt-out confirmation dialog, I explained my understanding of it on a reply to Feyd (my reply that starts with "When we develop a system..." and explored the psychological/behavioral aspects of user interface development). I didn't link it directly here because, as I'm using Sharkey, my link to my reply would likely leave the Lemmy environment into the Sharkey environment.
Comment on Firefox 148 introduces the promised AI kill switch for people who aren't into LLMs
skamu@mastodon.uno 2 days agoA modal in general is not defined as a dark pattern (not sure why you say that).
And in this case a modal is used to manage a user journey "subtask", which is a request to confirm a potential disruptive action: users may use firerox AI features for long, before deciding to turn them off, deeply changing their experience with the product.
I agree that it could have been done as a full page, but it is fine also as a modal on desktop (not mobile viewport)
dsilverz@calckey.world 1 day ago
dsilverz@calckey.world 1 day ago
@skamu@mastodon.uno @technology@lemmy.world @Feyd@programming.dev
Maybe I'm overly idealistic when it comes to software but, IMHO, a software (especially a browser) should be the least distractive possible. My point about modals was about feature announcement pop-ups ("Now you can do Y... Click on Z menu to get into Y"), the ones which Mozilla Firefox explicitly mentioned within the confirmation dialog, as well as the said confirmation dialog which, as far as I could find about, is one-sided, for there are no confirmation dialog to the other action, which is to activate the clankers.
The ideal workflow, to me, is as follows: the user launches the browser software, the main UI opens minimalistically listing the most frequently accessed websites and the pinned bookmarks, the user clicks on some shortcut or types in some URL, then the browser fetches the network content from said website, parses it, fetches whatever else needs to be fetched for the specific website, renders it visible on the screen, then let the user interact with the page as they please, without a MS Clippy-like behavior of reminding the user "It looks like this page has links, you can summarize them using a clanker" on a frequent basis.
Lynx, for example, is the perfect example of this, it's not an utopia I'm imagining: I type
lynxand I press enter, then Lynx executes and brings its TUI, then I press g and type the URL of a website, and it fetches and does what needs to be done in order to bring up the website to the TUI. No cluttered interface except for the short list of keyboard shortcuts at the bottom which don't require user interaction nor disturb the UX. That's KISS approach.When a browser has a MS Clippy-like behavior and, most importantly, when a browser brings potentially unwanted features turned on by default, whose opt-out requires the user to go through some sort of gymnastics while the usage of said feature is asymmetrically easy (seemingly no "confirm you want to use the clanker? The clanker may have access to the following: page content, currently open tabs, credentials on the page, etc..." like the opt-out confirmation dialog lists exhaustively about "enhancements that will be unavailable while the user opts out of Firefox AI enhancements"), again: perhaps I'm being too pedantic but, to me, it smells, it looks, it behaves and it whispers like a dark pattern.
skamu@mastodon.uno 1 day ago
@dsilverz @technology @Feyd
Hi Deamon, don't get me wrong, modals in general are bad and it is a "last resource". However, I agree with the solution of Firefox's UX designer, asking for a confirmation before turning on/off the AI functionalities (as it is a disruptive action that affect overall users XD). We may argue that maybe it needed to be done via a full page... ? Or maybe not using a "switch" in the first place. Anyway, all good. It is nice to see people with this kind of concerns 👍
dsilverz@calckey.world 1 day ago
@skamu@mastodon.uno @technology@lemmy.world @Feyd@programming.dev
The thing is, there doesn't seem to be confirmation before turning clankers on (at least I didn't find screenshots in this regard), but there is such a confirmation before turning the whole thing off (that is, from the default-on state Mozilla pushed unto the software upon updating/installing).If both situations involved double confirmation dialog in a symmetrical manner ("are you sure you want to proceed with activating this feature?" coexisting with "are you sure you want to opt-off from this feature?"), that would be fair. Pretty annoying, but fair. But this fairness doesn't seem to be happening, no confirmation dialog seems to exist for actually using the feature. The only thing similar to a "confirmation" during further usage of "AI Enhancements" would be the authentication step from whatever clanker was chosen from the suspiciously-biased list of clankers (ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, Llama, Mistral; no non-Western options such as Qwen or DeepSeek, for example).How disruptive would be turning off a feature that is far from being essential to browsing (and, in practice, may end up rendering the whole browsing experience worse with inaccurate summarization and potential vulnerabilities (prompt injection, remote code execution, etc), produced by pieces of software explicitly labeled as "it may produce inaccuracies")?
Not to say how, as I mentioned initially, the entire premise of bringing it as default-on with now the added "right" to "opt-off" is, itself, non-consensual relationship, insofar the user didn't seek it by themselves. Clankers would be a nice feature for some niches and use cases (again: I myself use LLMs, but it stems from my own decision to do so, not because it was pushed onto me; something I opted-in), but it should be voluntarily sought, installed and turned on by the user as they please, not as "default-on" option.Sure, no problems, that's reciprocal, we're good! Throughout my exchanges in this entire thread, I tried to keep it respectful (at least when it comes to the debate and my peers; of course I'm fiercely criticizing Mozilla Corporation, because they were once the ones who "will never sell your data") and trying to debate the idea and not the peer's person.
My concerns, in the end of the day, are just an attempt to advocate for the total, non-negotiable autonomy and Free Will (as far as Free Will can get in a deterministic cosmic existence) of users, far from just my own; and this involves denouncing potential corporate biases whenever a corporation brings up another brick in the already-tall wall of enshittification, naming and shaming corporations for their greedy corporate behavior.
Feyd@programming.dev 1 day ago
That doesn’t happen. I don’t recall firefox ever popping up a modal while I’m browsing.
dsilverz@calckey.world 1 day ago
@Feyd@programming.dev @technology@lemmy.world
It's ipsis literis from the Firefox opt-out confirmation dialog. They wouldn't mention said pop-ups if they weren't to happen.Maybe you got lucky and the routine which triggers said pop-ups didn't happen yet, doesn't mean that "that doesn't happen". Again: Firefox literally mentions pop-ups about "AI enhancement" features, it's not something I'm confabulating:
Feyd@programming.dev 1 day ago
I’m out. There is no point taking with someone that repeatedly lies to try to support their point. Look, I’m against the majority of LLM usage and implementation as well, and I’d rather most of it not be in firefox as well, but: