Vanguards are both worker run and democratic. Vanguards are a subsection of the working classes, not a class of their own or outside class struggle, and are both democratic internally, as well as establishing systems of democracy externally. I’m really not sure where you’re getting the idea that believing the working class needs to be organized for revolution means democracy is suddenly off the table.
For example, in the USSR, first-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about. Today we have Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance to reference for other socialist countries, with their own forms of democracy.
So again, why lie about what I believe? I’m not responsible for you not knowing what a vanguard is or how socialist democracy works.
Fizz@lemmy.nz 6 days ago
Vanguard parties are not working class how could they be. Are you going to have a vanguard party of steel workers running your country no that would be stupid. They are educated elites your comment explaining that so dont act like its wrong.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 days ago
“Intellectuals,” or whatever term you wish to describe them as, are not a class, but a subsection of every class. Each class has its own “intellectuals,” there are proletarian intellectuals and there are capitalist intellectuals. What the vanguard is, is a group of the working classes dedicated to revolution, professional revolutionaries. They are not “elites.” Here’s a diagram from Lady Izdihar:
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Classes are not simply any way you can categorize people, but specific social relations to production. Yes, steel workers are often members of vanguard parties. I organize with a communist party and have a full-time job. I’m not “acting” like you’re mistaken, you are mistaken, you do not know how vanguards function nor how democracy works within vanguards and socialist countries with vanguard parties, otherwise you wouldn’t be acting like vanguards are a “class” and that they aren’t democratic.
Fizz@lemmy.nz 6 days ago
No you’re explaining pre/during revolution. I dont care about structure during those times.
My issue is with your support for vanguard party post revolution. A vanguard party post revolution absolutely would be a more educated elite class than a steel worker. Ive even seen you talk about the vanguard party educating the working class on the revolutionary ideas which to me just sounds like 1:1 an elite class ruling over workers with total control.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 days ago
I’m talking about both before and after revolution, such as in this comment where I talk about democratic systems in post-revolutionary socialist states. This was 2 comments ago, either you forgot about it already or didn’t read it, neither of which shows any real sense of care for truth on your part.
Secondly, as I explained in my last comment, “intellectuals” are not a class. They belong to broader classes. Vanguards are indeed supposed to teach the rest of the working classes how to correctly struggle. Are you going to tell me that teachers in schools are an “elite class” too? This is just anti-intellectualism. Not everyone is going to be dedicated to studying revolutionary theory and history, not everyone is going to be a labor organizer, but that doesn’t mean we can’t have people dedicated to doing so.
Classes are social relations to production. The vanguard party and non-vanguard working class both have the same ownership over the means of production, just like your manager at whatever job you have likely isn’t an owner either.
Where are you getting all of these confused ideas about class, socialist democracy, and vanguards from? It certainly isn’t from Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc, nor is it from historical documentation.