Comment

Comment on US-led Gaza plan to force Palestinians into dystopian re-education camp leaked

Israel does plenty of bad things including to Palestinians.

However the political reality and history of the region is more complex than “Israel evil”.

Of course the Arab public blames the USA and Israel for everything bad. You can also look up what conspiracy theories are popular in the Arab world and you will see how much validity public opinion has. Blaming Israel and the USA (and the west) for every failure has been a goto for political and religious leaders for more than a hundred years. It’s the whole basis of Muslim brother type Islamism for example.

Let’s look at some facts though. Islamists and secular dictators in the region have killed far more people than Israel.

Let’s look at a different poll by PCPSR on Palestinians.

When asked if Hamas had committed the atrocities seen in the videos shown by international media displaying acts or atrocities committed by Hamas members against Israeli civilians, such as killing women and children in their homes. The overwhelming majority (86%) said it did not commit such atrocities, and only 10% said it did.

source

Sort:hotnew top

mrdown@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
Israel is the occupier it do bad things because the state has a supremacist ideology and want all Palestinians expulsed or killed . Occupied people do atrocities as an retaliation to occupations . Once Palestinians are liberated they will live peacefully with their Israelis

The political reality and history of the region is as simple as Israel is evil based on facts I mentioned in the other comment

Let’s look at some facts though. Islamists and secular dictators in the region have killed far more people than Israel. The same dictators who are abandoning Palestinians and are improving their relation with Israel. Israel is trying to normalize with El jolani which is an islamists. You are a bad faith and hypocritical person who try to justify occupation , settler colonialism and genocide

When asked if Hamas had committed the atrocities seen in the videos shown by international media displaying acts or atrocities committed by Hamas members against Israeli civilians, such as killing women and children in their homes. The overwhelming majority (86%) said it did not commit such atrocities, and only 10% said it did.

That’s what happen when you are oppressed for 80 goddamn year where israel is continuing the theft of land and want to exterminate Palestinians . Netanyahu said it pretty clearly there will never be a Palestinian state because the land is our and he compared Palestinians to Amalek there is no more clear intention of extermination not just genocide than that even Hitler was using better euphemism to deflect from the fact that he wanted to exterminate jews

Of course the Arab public blames the USA and Israel for everything bad. You can also look up what conspiracy theories are popular in the Arab world and you will see how much validity public opinion has. Blaming Israel and the USA (and the west) for every failure has been a goto for political and religious leaders for more than a hundred years. It’s the whole basis of Muslim brother type Islamism for example.

You are just a racist . Of course arabs did kill ton of people in history but it is nothing compared to the west and europe . The USA and Israel is to blame from settler colonialism and genocide . If we talk about who is the most responsible of death of people in history it is Europe. British in India alone are responsible for about 60 to 100 millions death. World war 1 and 2 happened because of European imperialist and colonialism ideology . Nazis was also Europeans. Almost every western intervention resulted to mass muder or civil wars

If you want the conspiracy to be limited you should ask for unconditional end of the occupation . Yo can’t be really anti islamists while at the same time supporting Jewish supremacy which do not represent all jews

At the end of the day there is nothing that justify settler colonialism and genocide that Israel is doing

source
mrdown@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

Then the PLO, who want languishing in exile, was brought in by Israel in a chance to seek a peaceful settlement. Oslo was a step in the right direction. The peace deals were rejected by Arafat.

Why do you always lie ? Arafat accepted Oslo accords, recognized Israel and rejected armed resistance. He rejected Camp David because all Palestinians rights given by international laws was not addressed . Blaming Arafat is like blaming Zelensky for refusing to give up lands to Russia .

Even former Israeli prime minister admitted camp David was a bad deal . If I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well - SHLOMO BEN-AMI

source
- Limerance@piefed.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  What Palestinian rights by international law do you mean? UNSC resolution 242 doesn’t grant the so called „right of return“ to all descendants of Palestinians for example.
  
  There were numerous rejections of peace deals by Palestinians and Arabs. Peel commission, UN Portion Plan of 1948, Khartoum resolution, Camp David, Taba, and others.
  
  Yes, Arafat accepted Oslo. It was his big comeback from exile in Tunis snd irrelevance.
  
  The Oslo accords were the only time something positive was achieved for Palestinians. Yes, they were limited, but also only meant to provide a transition for a few years.
  
  The reasons Arafat and later Abbas didn’t agree to one of the deals offered over the years were fear of losing power and waiting for a better offer down the line. The better offer came, but internal Palestinian political opposition (Hamas) grew stronger.
  
  The outcome was an ever worsening condition for Palestinians in many ways. Being uncompromising has cost them dearly.
  
  Israel should end the occupation of the West Bank and settlements. However they have legitimate security interests. Israel needs a neighbor that agrees to peace and non aggression. Leaving unilaterally hasn’t worked in Gaza. At the moment Israelis don‘t see a chance for this. October 7th has diminished the small peace camp further.
  
  Palestinian political leadership has been deeply divided for decades now. There’s no good vision, only eternal violent struggle and uncompromising demands. You have to understand that for many Palestinians „the occupation“ means all of Israel, not just West Bank and Gaza. This is a fight they have been losing for 100 years and will continue to do so. Coexistence is the only way forward.
  
  More Palestinians have died in Gaza, than all deaths combined (including Israel‘s) over the last 100 years before. Gaza had an operational international airport with construction of a harbor underway, was ruled by Palestinians, no IDF presence in the late 1990s. Arafat decided to throw all that away when he launched the second intifada. Just because he wasn’t able to compromise and sell that to his people.
  
  The comparison to Ukraine and Zelenskyy is weak because the situation is so different. Ukraine hasn’t lost the war yet, but is holding on. For how many years that’s worth doing is a good question.
  
  source
  - mrdown@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    
    What Palestinian rights by international law do you mean? UNSC resolution 242 doesn’t grant the so called „right of return“ to all descendants of Palestinians for example.
    
    UN General Assembly Resolution 194 give Palestinians that right . Funny how Palestinian right of return is your problem rather than Israel Law of return which allow any Jewish person, their children, grandchildren, and spouses to move to Israel and become citizens and even to occupied land.
    
    There were numerous rejections of peace deals by Palestinians and Arabs. Peel commission, UN Portion Plan of 1948, Khartoum resolution, Camp David, Taba, and others.
    
    Not a single one granted all right international laws give them. East Jerusalem, all of the west bank and gaza are considered Palestinians , the right to have an army to defend itself and the full sovereignty of the part. Arafat refused for that reason not the bullshit you are saying
    
    Israel should end the occupation of the West Bank and settlements. However they have legitimate security interests. Israel needs a neighbor that agrees to peace and non aggression. Leaving unilaterally hasn’t worked in Gaza. At the moment Israelis don‘t see a chance for this. October 7th has diminished the small peace camp further.
    
    They don’t the end of occupation is unconditional. Israel as the settler colonial power and military superiority do not need any security guarantees. It is Palestinians who should have the right to security guarantees
    
    Israel needs a neighbor that agrees to peace and non aggression Israel as the settler colonial power is the one who should agree to genuine peace and non aggression and should abandon the idea that the whole land belong to them and if they give some part of the land back that it is because Israel is good . The Palestinians authority recognize Israel and collaborate for them. How Israel thanks them? By building even more colonies by terrorist settlers
    
    More Palestinians have died in Gaza, than all deaths combined (including Israel‘s) over the last 100 years before. Gaza had an operational international airport with construction of a harbor underway, was ruled by Palestinians, no IDF presence in the late 1990s. Arafat decided to throw all that away when he launched the second intifada. Just because he wasn’t able to compromise and sell that to his people.
    
    Every single death in Gaza is israel responsibility as the settler colonial power . It is some twisted logic that israel can destroy that Airport just because of the second intifada which also started because of Israel refusing to give all Palestinians right back under international law . The biggest victims of the second intifada is again Palestinians . Israel used human shield during the second intifada and deliberately killed innocent civilians.
    
    Israel has severe restrictions seven in the 90’s on Gaza
    
    The comparison to Ukraine and Zelenskyy is weak because the situation is so different. Ukraine hasn’t lost the war yet, but is holding on. For how many years that’s worth doing is a good question.
    
    Your logic is weak and scummy. Ukraine is the occupied , Palestinians is the occupied. Russia is the settler colonial power , israel is the settler colonial power . It is exactly the same goddamn thing. Even Israel and Russia rhetoric are the same bullshit : the security excuse while continuing building colonies in the west bank and Crimea, the idea that Ukrainians and Palestinians distinct identity do not exists etc
    
    When someone lose the war international laws do not grant sovereignty over those land to the winner even if the loser started it and international laws grant right to resistance to the occupied and by resistance I do not mean killing innocent civilians unlike you who use excuses to justify Palestinians mass murder , genocide and settler colonialism
    
    source