Well, the problem is that to get to the utopia called Communism were everybody is equal, a Society has to first go through the Dictatorship Of The Proletariat after the Workers Seize The Means Of Production and, curiously (or maybe not so curiously if one understands at least a bit of Human Nature, especially that of the kind of people who seek power) none of the nations which went into the Dictatorship Of The Proletariat (i.e. all the ones which call or called themselves “Communist”) ever actually reached Communism and they all got stuck in Dictatorial regimes (and I believe in not a single one of those is the Proletariat actually in charge: for example in China Labour Unions are illegal),
So whilst it is indeed not possible for Communism to exist in an authoritarian context, according to Marxism-Leninism to get to Communism one must first go through an authoritarian context and eventually from there reach Communism, hence why all those nations that tried to reach Communism never got past the authoritarian stage that precedes Communist.
WinGirl99@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
Ahh… please tell me more about this human nature which is incompatible with communism while microplastics flows in your veins.
cobalt32@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
I think they were specifically referring to Marxism-Leninism. It is “human nature” to act in your own self interest, so any system with hierarchies of decision-making power will eventually become corrupt. We just have to take a non-hierarchical path towards communism.
WinGirl99@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
human nature does not exist. explained it here:
blorp.blahaj.zone/inbox/c/…/17913885
cobalt32@lemmy.blahaj.zone 19 hours ago
Agreed, that’s why I put it in quotes. The way I should have worded it is that evolution has incentivized living things to act in a way that prioritizes their own survival over the survival of others. This is known as the survival instinct, or self-preservation, and is well established scientifically. This is a more appropriate argument against hierarchies of decision-making power than “human nature”.
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
Re-read my post.
I was not making any human nature claims about Communism, I was making them about what happens around dictatorial power.
WinGirl99@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
oh btw i am an anarchist. Anarchy also is not well with “human nature”. So dont think I am a Marxist-leninist and defending them. I just…
…hate that word.
WinGirl99@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
Your opinion does not matter, I am not saying this because you are invalid. I am saying this because this is not the thing i wanna talk with you.
“human nature” these two words mean nothing and even more than being meaningless these two words are harmful. What human nature? Are there any scientific proofs that something is “human nature”. It has no logic behind yet it is accepted by you and excepted to accept by the reader.
There is no such thing as human nature. Human nature is when you have two hands. Human nature is not when “if someone gains power the power corrupts the powerholder.” there is a chance that it may not occour. It is not certain. the situation of that “human nature” is not very specified. thats why it has no meaning behind it.
The second i wanna point is that the “human nature” is always used against communism. Communism is not well with human nature. okay, sure. What about capitalism. you are either capitalist or communist. You want either private property exist or not. capitalism harms people so it is not very well with human nature either. Power also corrupts in capitalism. Elon Musk is the dictionary defination of power corrupts.
If power corrupts then under capitalism it also is power corrupts if human nature is not well with communism same goes with capitalism.
It is not just you that say this human nature. It is nothing personal. I really do hate that fallacy.
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 days ago
Two points:
Call it whatever you want: you can’t logically deny that some behavioral traits present in some humans cause them to seek or even create positions were they have power over others, structures which they then defend, preserve and extend whilst they extract personal upsides from their positions in it, and that group systems were there is already a single power pole with little or no effective independent oversight are way easier to take over by such people than systems with multiple power poles which keep each other in check.
(In summary people who lust after power will do whatever it takes to keep it going once they get it)
And yeah, this applies just as much to the dictatorships calling themselves “Communist” as it does to “Capitalist” systems - we’ve been seeing in the last 3 or 4 decades in Neoliberal so called “Democracies” Money subverting the supposedly independent Pillars of Democracy (though in some countries, not really: for example in many countries those at the top of the Political Pillar choose who heads the Judicial Pillar) to make itself power above all others, all this driven by individuals with those very behavioral traits I mentioned above, just starting from further behind (having to first undermine multi-polar power systems) that similar people trying to take over autocratic systems were power is already concentrated in a single pole that answers to nobody else.
Are you denying that amongst humans there are people with the behavioral trait of seeking power at any cost? Are you denying once such people get said power they don’t do whatever it takes to keep it going, including preserving the societal and political structures that maintain said situation even whilst telling everybody else “this is only temporary”? Are you denying that it’s easier to capture power in that way in systems where its already concentrated in a single place which is not kept in check by independent entities which can overthrow it?
And I’m not even going it things like groupthink and “yes men” and how such elements in human groups can pervert ever the most honest holders of power.
Battling against the expression “human nature” doesn’t change the fact that these traits exists in many humans and the dynamics of their interaction with human social structures.
CannonFodder@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Interesting take. But there is some truth to the notion of ‘human nature’. Humans do act certain ways; we retract from pain, we attempt to solve problems and communicate. Whether it is ‘human nature’ that dictatorship power corrupts people can only be inferred by the examples we have seen. If you can show that a dictatorship didn’t lead to abuse of power in some significant number of cases, then it would be proven false. But there’s the problem - and it’s more of a logical one - no system can make everyone happy and so from at least some perspectives, any political system will be seen as corrupt by some. So we can never have a dictatorship that isn’t considered corrupt. Just like we can’t have a democracy / capitalist society that isn’t considered corrupt by some. All we can do is look at observed general patterns and try to extrapolate. And there aren’t enough examples to do a really convincing statistical analysis. So far it seems that humans in power always abuse that power, so it’s reasonable to conclude that that is a natural human tendency, like continuing to breath when able.