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Comment on Critical vulnerability in WebP Codec has browser vendors scrambling for updates

Zeus@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

That’s not how people use images. For an image format to be viable, you need your camera to support it, your gallery app/program to support it, the web sites you upload it to, the messaging platforms you share it through.

yes. but that’s my exact point. if i make an image then upload it to the internet - the only software that’s involved is on my side (gimp, ps, whatever[^1]) and the browser of the person viewing it. if it was supported in chromium, that’s automatically in chrome, edge, vivaldi, brave, discord, element, spotify, whatever other chromium-embedded or electron apps you care to name. that’s good enough for anyone who isn’t a professional, and they’re already fine. fuck it, it has the joint photographic experts group behind it - they’re quite a big name in photography

Oh you’d be surprised… Gaming videos on Steam, screen recordings, porn clips by amateurs, or just random clips, the amount of low-res gifs with 10s of MB in size is crazy.

meh, i haven’t seen any in the past ~5 years apart from ones specifically chosen for that 256 colour æsthetic; but i will believe you

Sure, it’s shitty of Google to drop the support, but from experience I’m still unfortunately 100% sure it wouldn’t have gotten anywhere.

Heck, Apple has been using HEIF for years and that’s a trillion dollar company with a huge market share, and you still get shitton of places where you can’t use it.

it did get places. it has got places. again, it’s very new and is already well supported

jpeg2k failed because of licencing and royalty issues. heif hasn’t spread because of licencing and royalty issues ^(in^ ^my^ ^personal^ ^opinion,^ ^webp^ ^has^ ^licencing^ ^issues.)^ png didn’t. jpeg (sort of) didn’t. jxl doesn’t.

but anyways, this isn’t a pro-jxl comment; it’s an anti-webp comment. i used jxl as an example of why webp, and its adoption, is making the web worse even though it’s better than png on a technical level

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WhoRoger@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

if i make an image then upload it to the internet - the only software that’s involved is on my side (gimp, ps, whatever[^1]) and the browser of the person viewing it.

It’s not. The web site you’re uploading to has to support it to allow you the upload in the first place, and to process it to make previews or lower-res versions for the web pages or apps.

Well unless you’re uploading directly through ftp and share only the link, but again that’s not how people use pictures.

Then if the person on the other side wants to download the picture, set it as wallpaper, send it through messenger, then those programs need to support it too.

Heck now that I think about it, browser support isn’t even that critical because web sites can make media available in whatever format the browser supports. The important part is the backend, and local apps.

meh, i haven’t seen any in the past ~5 years apart from ones specifically chosen for that 256 colour æsthetic; but i will believe you

Do believe me, recently I’ve started converting those I want to keep to mp4 and I’m saving gigabytes.

Recently I’ve had some debates here with people looking for better support for gifs, or how to encode them better or whatever, and I nudge them towards webp at least. Because simply, if the web site supports only jpg, png, gif and webp uploads, then I definitely prefer webp.

it did get places. it has got places. again, it’s very new and is already well supported

It’s not all that well supported in lots of those cases I mention. And where it did get, it only got because Apple has actually billions of devices out there and has the power to make the format default among them with one worldwide update. Yet it still has to convert to jpg when sharing elsewhere by default. That’s how huge the resistance is.

It’s not all that new either, heif was introduced in 2017, webp even earlier and people still bitch that they can’t use it because their oddball app doesn’t support it.

Meanwhile x265 has been a common thing for years, and every few years before there’s been a new generation of video codec, and nobody ever bats an eye when there’s a new update.

jpeg2k failed because of licencing and royalty issues. heif hasn’t spread because of licencing and royalty issues

I’m not advocating for these formats specifically (definitely not jpeg2000 haha), but I’m saying licences and royalties aren’t that super important when it comes to how supported something becomes.

Hell look at Apple… Everything is proprietary.

Or when it comes to formats, mp3 is still the most widely supported audio format (non-free), and DivX has been the most widely supported video format for much longer than anything else… Also non-free.

jpe group have a considerable amount of sway so i’m sure they could persuade most camera manufacturers to support it

Haha hardware camera makers are the slowest dinosaurs when it comes to technology. Took them fucking ages for some to support DNG raw format, and before h264 was already getting grey, most would record videos only in mjpeg.

But it’s more about phone cameras anyway. And well with those we’ll only have webp and heif at most, so I guess we have to deal with that anyway.

Maybe if Mozilla had not abandoned their FF OS, maybe that would’ve been a camera supporting jpegxl now.

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- Zeus@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  
  It’s not. The web site you’re uploading to has to support it to allow you the upload in the first place, and to process it to make previews or lower-res versions for the web pages or apps.
  
  alright yeah i guess. to be honest i was more talking about using images i’ve made on my own site, or publishers using an image format on their own websites. as for uploading to other sites it’s a complete mess: even tumblr doesn’t allow uploading webp, but it then automatically converts to webp which makes a horrible blurry mess
  
  Do believe me, recently I’ve started converting those I want to keep to mp4 and I’m saving gigabytes.
  
  i wasn’t being sarcastic! i do believe you. and yeah, i’d do the same
  
  It’s not all that well supported in lots of those cases I mention. And where it did get, it only got because Apple has actually billions of devices out there and has the power to make the format default among them with one worldwide update. Yet it still has to convert to jpg when sharing elsewhere by default. That’s how huge the resistance is.
  
  sorry, i was talking about jxl here. i agree heif hasn’t got anywhere; but that is, again, mostly due to licencing issues (unsurprisingly, given it’s apple)
  
  I’m not advocating for these formats specifically (definitely not jpeg2000 haha), but I’m saying licences and royalties aren’t that super important when it comes to how supported something becomes.
  
  Hell look at Apple… Everything is proprietary.
  
  yeah exactly - none of apple’s formats are supported outside of apple devices (and i guess itunes for windows)
  
  Or when it comes to formats, mp3 is still the most widely supported audio format (non-free), and DivX has been the most widely supported video format for much longer than anything else… Also non-free.
  
  that’s a fair point, and i can’t really explain that - i can only assume it’s big for the same reason as gif: it was good enough at the time, and got standardised by cds
  
  Haha hardware camera makers are the slowest dinosaurs when it comes to technology. Took them fucking ages for some to support DNG raw format, and before h264 was already getting grey, most would record videos only in mjpeg.
  
  really? now admittedly i don’t know much about cameras, but i’ve had a couple of filmmaker friends and i was under the impression raw was universally supported
  
  But it’s more about phone cameras anyway. And well with those we’ll only have webp and heif at most, so I guess we have to deal with that anyway.
  
  i’m not sure about that - even google camera doesn’t support webp (i mean, it’s called “web picture”, i think they see it as a web format primarily). i think phone cameras will continue to be solely jpg for a long time
  
  Maybe if Mozilla had not abandoned their FF OS, maybe that would’ve been a camera supporting jpegxl now.
  
  that’d be nice. i do wish mozilla wasn’t so catastrophically mismanaged all around
  
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  - WhoRoger@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Aye so bottom line, we’re stuck with what exists until new formats are forced upon everybody… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    
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    Zeus@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    
    Aye so bottom line, we’re stuck with what exists until new formats are forced upon everybody… ¯_(ツ)_/¯
    
    yeah… :(
    
    Raw isn’t a format, it’s supposed to just be unaltered stream from the imager, so every camera model is unique in that regard. But DNG is a way to describe that data so it’s more readable to programs unfamiliar with the specific model. And well, some makers prefer to use their own proprietary models.
    
    ah fair enough, i didn’t know that
    
    Actually AAC is mostly Apple’s format and support for it is pretty great. I’m not super familiar with the details but it sounds like a similar situation as with webp.
    
    is it? i didn’t think any android players supported it apart from specifically apple music? and i’m pretty sure ms’ groove music couldn’t play them^?^
    
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