Comment on Are we ready for javascript without a build step on the front end in 2023?

• jeffhykin@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Sure, all I’m saying is every layer has major cost, and JS development has a lot of layers. It’s a problem when new devs find a YouTube tutorial for a one page To-do app that uses a pipeline as deep as:

  • name resolution (node modules and unpinned versions)
  • compiling uncompiled dependencies
  • Vue/Sevlte to TS or JS + source maps
  • TSX to TS
  • TS + config options + feature flags to JS+source map
  • JS transpile CommonJS to ES imports
  • JS through babel for polyfills (and more source maps)
  • JS through tree shaking
  • JS through an uglifier (and more source maps)
  • combine JS into one file of JS (more source maps)
  • Hydration for SSR
  • Hot reloading dev server
  • then user can render

  I think OP is asking if it’s possible for a good Todo app to work without needing all that.

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  • Swiggles@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    And the simple answer is no. You can remove a layer here and there, but this is what the modern dev environment looks like.

    I mean sure you can implement all that yourself and carry all the extra cognitive load, but it is not productive to even skip babel or so. There is no point, but the challenge.

    Of course it is a bit more complicated to pick the right tools and you don’t have to use everything, but that’s a whole different discussion.

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    • jeffhykin@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I would disagree; we can and I have done it myself.

      There’s more to software than big corporate websites or massive FOSS projects. I’ve made tons of little one-html-file sites, like an inflation-adjustrd income calculator, a scheduling app I’ve used every week for 4 years, a chemistry converter/calculator for a class I was in, even my resume site is just a single html file. Not only that but most of my deno modules are nothing more than a main.js, a readme, and a gitignore.

      You don’t need tests, and a linter, and babel, and tree shaking, and JSX, and typescript, and souce maps just to make a resume site, or an infographic, or a one-off internal dashboard, or a simple blog, or a restraunt menu.

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      • Swiggles@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        None of the tools are really made for the most trivial use cases though. Although it doesn’t take much effort to set everything up in a simple project I would probably also skip most of it. But this discussion about tiny one off projects is kinda pointless as you don’t have many of the problems the solve anyway.

        I implemented a reddit frontend (kiosk mode) a while back using only vanilla JS for fun, because a previous implementation by someone else broke. There was not really a point though as it wasn’t even simpler than using the proper tools. It was just for the hell of it, but nowhere close to a “real” project though.

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      • sacredfire@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        For sure this is true, but at that this point for simple pages like that, most people will just use some sort of lowcode or no code cms like WordPress or square space etc. So for most jobs that in web development space we’re talking about SAAS/PAAS apps, very complex media sites like Netflix/YouTube, or stuff in the financial sector. In fact I work for a company that makes a CMS just so that other corporate companies can publish their relatively simple PR websites using a low code solution, but the CMS it’s self is complicated af and I honestly can’t even begin to untangle all the stuff going on.

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