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Comment on Is referring to countries as "civilized" and "uncivilized" racist?

schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

It can be argued that it’s racist because “civilized” means “western” or “western-influenced”, i.e. contrasts countries in Europe + North America + Australia + maybe some of Eastern Asia with countries in Africa or Southern Asia.

You are very close to figuring out some of the problems with “social justice” ideology.

Standing up for all “oppressed groups” is contradictory. For example, in western countries, LGBT people are an oppressed group, and so are Muslims, yet when the latter are in power, they treat the former very badly, so which side do you stand up for? Or try these: usnews.com/…/blacks-are-more-socially-conservativ… news.gallup.com/…/blacks-conservative-republicans…

It also doesn’t help in conflicts such as Israel/Palestine (are Palestinians oppressed by Israel, so we stand up for them? are Israelis oppressed by the Muslim world, so we stand up for Israel?) or trans activists vs. trans-exclusionary feminists (are trans people an oppressed group whose rights we support? are women an oppressed group whose identity is being appropriated by trans women?). You can see it’s possible to argue nearly everything from the premise that we stand up for “oppressed groups”.

So I suggest people stop thinking in these terms at all and instead pick some other way of thinking, such as supporting a society in which anyone is allowed to live their life as long as they aren’t harming anyone else. Not saying this helps in the specific (somewhat silly) argument you are quoting.

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november@lemmy.vg ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

Standing up for all “oppressed groups” is contradictory. For example, in western countries, LGBT people are an oppressed group, and so are Muslims, yet when the latter are in power, they treat the former very badly, so which side do you stand up for?

This is nonsense. I can want Muslim people to have human rights without wanting to live in a Muslim theocracy. Just like I want Christian theocrats out of the US government, but I don’t want to murder Christians.

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- FuglyDuck@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Exactly.
  
  groups a, b, and c enjoy the same rights doesn’t change if group b wants to take those rights away from c, it is cool with a having them.
  
  B still enjoys those rights and C still enjoys those rights. Everyone also gets to call group B assholes, though, for trying to shit on group C.
  
  In any case, I’d call the US uncivilized. I don’t think that’s particularly racist, in the same way it would be if I called South Africa uncivilized , or something. It kind of depends on the reason and way I’m using it.
  
  I think the US is uncivilized because kids are going to school hungry and not being fed because some asshole in Texas thinks feeding kids is bad.
  
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- schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  I agree with you substantially.
  
  But just very recently there was a story in Germany where a male elementary school teacher revealed that he was gay. Many of his students were Muslims who were taught to hate gay people and now refused to respect him in various ways (including refusing to go to his classes).
  
  Who is the “oppressed group” here?
  
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  - november@lemmy.vg ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    Being oppressed for one facet of your identity doesn’t stop people from being bigots.
    
    cf TERFs, most of whom are women. They’re victims of misogyny, but they’re also perpetrators of transmisogyny.
    
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Initiateofthevoid@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
Standing up for all “oppressed groups” is contradictory. For example, in western countries, LGBT people are an oppressed group, and so are Muslims, yet when the latter are in power, they treat the former very badly, so which side do you stand up for

Easy. The answer is that you stand up for the oppressed group.

Why, exactly, do you think that’s a contradiction? When a group is in power, they are by definition not oppressed.

In all of your examples - all of them - there are oppressors in power, and there are oppressed that are not.

As generalized groups,

LGBT people are not in power over Muslims.

Transgender women are not in power over cisgender women.

Palestinians are not in power over Israel.

In case it really needs to be said - obviously, not all Muslims, cisgender women, or Israelis are oppressors. But all Palestinians and most LGBT people are oppressed.

Palestinians are not “the Muslim world” and painting such a massive and diverse group as a monolith is disingenious at best. The same should be said for associating all Jewish people with the actions of Israel - it’s fundamentally wrong.

The answer remains the same, in any and every case. You stand up for the oppressed group.

Doing so is the only way you stand for:

a society in which anyone is allowed to live their life as long as they aren’t harming anyone else.
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