Comment on Trump halts all military aid to Ukraine after White House clash with Zelensky
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks agoEverything you mentioned is due to the war. If we roll back the clock to before the war, which country was more free? If the war ends today, which country is likely to be more free?
I think Ukraine wins in both (esp if we remove issues due to Russian bullying). It wasn’t some paradise of freedom or anything, but they had a lot more voice in their government.
Only Trump and Putin support us having a vote
Neither do, they both want concessions. Trump seems to want resources, and Putin wants land and no NATO expansion. Neither wants what’s best for Ukrainians, they want spoils of war.
bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 5 weeks ago
They both want there to be elections in Ukraine so that we can vote. Zelensky (with support from Europe and preciously) wants to continue being a dictator without elections.
Zelensky will not stop the war until the very last of is dead.
So don’t matter how bad Trump’s deal will be, no matter how much concessions will be given to Putin, it’s still better than continuation of Zelensky’s regime (and war as a direct consequence).
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
Is that actually true? Because that sounds like a very pro-Russia take and doesn’t really jive with the approval ratings I’ve seen, which are still positive (trending down, but still positive).
The problem with elections is they just aren’t feasible without a ceasefire, and Russia isn’t interested in that. So if an election happens in the current climate, it’ll be heavily biased and I don’t think anyone will really accept the outcome. Russia wants a pro-Russia stooge, Europe wants someone pro-western, Zelensky wants to remain in power, and I think Ukraine will want someone else soon if Zelensky can’t end the war. It’s a crappy situation, but if Zelensky wins, there’s no way Russia accepts the outcome.
I don’t know much about Ukrainian politics, so I don’t know what alternatives there might be. But I do know Ukrainians should decide that, and that’s not feasible if Ukraine capitulates to Russia.
bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 4 weeks ago
It doesn’t make it false.
You believe in “approval ratings” from a country which people are forbidden from leaving, where people are mass kidnapped off the streets (and then either die or get tortured by Zelensky’s regime), where news media are censored (you are basically getting sent to die if you write something Zelensky does not approve of).
What other fairy tales do you believe in?
Dozens of countries did elections in the wartime (including US). This is only an excuse for Zelensky to stay in power.
USA and Russia are literally pushing for those elections, they will accept them. Most of the countries would probably do the same (except a few EU countries maybe) if USA/Russia tell them to.
But that’s exactly what I am trying to tell you - we CAN’T decide that. You literally support a dictator that prevents us from deciding anything. How are we supposed to decide anything if we cannot vote??
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
It’s the best I have. The alternative is believing Russian propaganda, who are the aggressors here. Collecting accurate polls is nigh impossible though.
Don’t forget that Russia also uses conscription too and has similar issues, and the US did as well. This isn’t some crazy, unique thing in Ukraine.
I can’t speak for others, but the US hasn’t been occupied since 1812 (unless you include territories during WW2), and the election of 1812 didn’t have issues because the British were largely fighting defensively for most of the war.
After a quick check, it seems the UK postponed elections by extending parliament’s term during WW2 until 1945, after the Germans surrendered but before the Japanese surrendered. So there’s absolutely precedent here.
And both are going to heavily interfere and neither will accept the results if it’s not what they want.
And how is your vote supposed to count if you’re sandwiched between two superpowers each heavily invested in the outcome of the election? The war needs to end before a proper election can happen, and just ending the war now won’t likely benefit Ukraine long term with no major side considering Ukraine’s interests (Russia wants land, no Zelensky, and no NATO, US wants mineral rights, Zelensky wants to stay in power, and EU countries want a NATO border w/ Russia).
It must absolutely suck being in Ukraine right now, but regardless of who is selected to mediate, Ukraine will lose.